Concrete Countertops: Fixing Mistakes, Making Profits, and Choosing the Right Mix
You poured your heart into that concrete countertop, but now the sealer’s failing, and you're stuck wondering how to fix it. Maybe you're considering a concrete kitchen sink—spoiler alert: don’t. This week on The Concrete Podcast, BG and Jon lay out the hard truths and smart strategies for maintaining concrete countertops, stripping failing sealers, and making design choices that actually boost your profitability. Plus, we’ll break down why buying from Kodiak Pro isn’t just about materials—it’s about joining a movement that puts makers first.
If you’re in the concrete game, this episode will save you time, money, and frustration. Tune in, take notes, and let’s build something better.
👉 CLICK HERE to support Noel Moniot's GoFundMe 👈
Enhance your concrete design skills with our upcoming workshops and events:
RammCrete Workshop
• Dates: March 29-30, 2025
• Location: Goddard, KS
• Description: Master Brandon Gore's exclusive RammCrete technique in this 1.5-day workshop. Learn mold construction, mix design, application, and finishing to create high-end concrete designs like wall panels, furniture, and sinks.
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• Dates: May 6-7, 2025
• Location: Napa, CA
• Description: Join industry leaders for a 2-day hands-on workshop covering Upright Casting Techniques (UCT) and RammCrete. Gain practical experience in mixing, casting, finishing, and sealing complex concrete designs.
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• Dates: June 7-8, 2025
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• Description: Ideal for beginners, this 1.5-day workshop led by expert artisans with over 20 years of experience covers essential skills including templating, form building, concrete mixing, casting, curing, sealing, and installation.
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• Date: June 21, 2025
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• Description: Attend the inaugural Kodiak Pro Demo Day for a hands-on experience with no limits. This free event has limited spots available.
For more details and registration, please visit the respective event pages.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Hello, Jon Schuler.
Hello, Brandon Gore.
Well, is it the frozen Arctic where you're at in California?
Well, for this time of year, for us, it is.
75, t-shirt weather.
Your nipples are rock hard, aren't they?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is park weather, yeah, this time of year, yeah.
Oh, man.
I could see you, like, remember those belly shirts were popular in the 80s?
I could see you wearing one of those right now.
Oh, it's sweater weather.
You got that all dancing around the house.
Yeah, it's beautiful.
Yeah.
Well, it's negative one here right now, and high today is going to be like seven, and the wind chill is about negative 20.
We have probably, yeah, probably six inches of snow.
It was pretty much a blizzard here for a couple of days.
Yesterday was just nonstop.
But anyways, Concrete Podcast is important.
I came slip sliding all the way down to my shop and my truck and I'm here to do this.
So yeah, so here we are.
I got a few things to hit real quick.
First of all is Noel Moniot's GoFundMe is up to like $5,600.
A little bit over $5,600.
Yeah, so that's awesome.
So if you haven't done it yet, go to the kodiakpro.com website, scroll down to this podcast or last week's podcast.
We have a link to the GoFundMe and make a contribution.
That's how you say it.
I was going to say contribute.
But contribution, $5, $10, $20, whatever you can do.
Every donation helps.
So help him.
He had his trailer stolen.
It's full of tools, floor grinders, polishers.
When we can, we like to help our concrete brothers.
I hate saying that.
I hate when people say, hey, brother.
But to help our concrete brothers, to help our concrete comrades, compadres.
What other terms?
Friends.
Yeah.
Artisans.
Buddies.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hey, man, if someone's struggling, to the best of all our ability, if any of us can reach out, unfortunately, in this case, we're so far away, you know, losing all your equipment and your trailer, a little bit of money, you know, that anybody can contribute, it just helps someone get back on their feet a little bit quicker.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The whole brother thing, back to that for a second.
It's like the motorcycle wave.
I can't stand the motorcycle wave.
I used to have, I used to ride motorcycles.
I used to have a BMW GS, it's this adventure bike, but I'd be riding, you know, and every motorcycle I pass, they want to do the low wave.
It pisses me off.
It pisses me off.
Every time I drive, pass a Dodge Ram, they don't do a wave.
You know, what, oh, you ride a motorcycle, I ride a motorcycle.
We got so much in common.
Hey, brother.
It's exhausting.
It's exhausting.
And that's where brother is these days.
Like I'll meet somebody, I've never met them before.
I'll, you know, I'll be out with somebody and they're like, hey, this is my, this is my friend.
So and so, hey, brother, how's it going?
Dude, I just literally met you.
I don't know who you are.
And you're calling me brother.
I don't know.
Things that, come on, brother.
The things that wind me up, dude.
I get wound up on ridiculous things.
And I don't know what you're talking about.
Every place I ride around in my truck, man.
You give the wave?
Yeah.
Another Ram goes by and both of we just like, you know, it's like this little two finger salute.
Uh-huh.
Each other.
Yeah.
It's not the low, it's not the low peace sign or anything.
It's just, you know, a quick one like, you got it, bro.
Yeah.
Nice truck.
Yeah.
It's exhausting.
When I lived in Eureka Springs, it's windy roads.
You've been there a bunch of times, windy mountain roads.
If you're behind somebody that's their first day on a motorcycle, you could tell.
Like, they'd gone to Harley-Davidson.
They bought a bike.
They bought all the leather stuff.
You know, they have, like, the fake motorcycle club patch.
It's supposed to look like a club patch, but it says Harley-Davidson.
But it's all brand new, you know, and they're barely making the turns because they don't know how to lean the bike into the corner.
So they're just barely making it.
But every time a bike goes by, they got to take their hands off and do the low wave.
And you're just like, dude, come on, man.
It's your first day.
You're cosplaying this thing right now.
Well, that's what he did it, though.
That's what he did it.
Hey, listen, I'm just putting it out there.
That's why I bought the Dodge Ram.
As soon as I saw that community.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I haven't showed it yet, but no, I mean, I'm waiting for my Mopar jacket to come in.
I bet you are.
Cosplay.
You know what cosplay is?
You've heard that term, cosplay?
Yeah, yeah.
Costume play is what it stands for, for costume play.
You know, it's like these adults that go to Comic-Con.
They dress up like Spider-Man or whatever.
They lie in our bedroom.
Yeah, I can imagine.
You know, we have that in the industry as well.
We have like concrete cosplayers.
There's some people that parade as being artisans or experts or, you know, back when I used to do GFRC in my factory.
Bro, I know for a fact you never did it, but now you're gonna make a thousand YouTube videos, you know, pontificating about your experience.
They're a concrete cosplayer.
That's all fun.
That's all fun.
Why am I getting wound up right now, Jon?
I shouldn't be getting wound up like this.
Come on, man.
Well, let's move on to something else.
I could do this all day.
Isn't there, there's like cosplay events.
So that's what we should set up for the artisan industry.
It's like a concrete cosplay.
My point being is like everybody knows they're not Superman, right?
I mean, they know you're not the Mandalorian, but you know, they have a cool costume and they have fun.
Yeah.
You know, why not?
So the same thing, why, you know, I guess sometimes maybe we all take ourselves too seriously.
What if we came up with a cosplay event and that way, you know, the, the typicals could show up, but all of us be like, dude, cool costume, man.
I'm an engineer.
Me too.
I'm an accountant.
Want to learn how to make a concrete countertop?
Come on, that would be fun.
And my point being to that, like, legitimately, I'm not making fun of it.
We would all know that we're doing it on purpose.
So whatever.
And you have a good time.
Like anybody who goes to those events, I'll bet have an absolute ball.
They know they're not Harley Quinn.
You know what I mean?
Maybe.
I don't know.
I don't know, Jon.
Let's move on.
We have four upcoming workshops slash events.
We have a RammCrete workshop here in Goddard, Kansas, March 29th and 30th.
We have a Hero's Quest workshop May 6th and 7th in Napa, California.
We have a Basics Fundamentals workshop here in Goddard, Kansas, June 7th and 8th.
And those three, you'll go to concretedesignschool.com to read more and register.
Then we have a Kodiak Pro demo day, June 21st here in Goddard, Kansas.
Had a guy register this morning for it.
So, yeah.
And if you want to register for that, go to kodiakpro.com, go to Shop, Training and Events, and you can register there, and that's a free event.
So, there's that.
So, what are we going to talk about today, Jon?
Well, it depends how...
I'm on this Concrete Countertops, Furniture and Concrete Art.
Gabe and Ashley's page.
Gotcha.
Yeah, I'm not on there anymore.
You know, things go circular.
So, this is a situation where, I mean, literally, and probably the first, and I got to give them a call, like, the first 20 posts, eight of them are now advertisements for grinders and $30 granite, et cetera, et cetera, which is wild.
So, that just tells me they haven't been watching it.
Or anybody else who's maybe a moderator to this page, if you are, you know, here at one of this podcasts come out, maybe go take a look and clean up the page a little bit.
But otherwise, it seems there are a lot of questions and incidents around sealing technologies.
Okay.
Epoxies, coatings, you know, what do you recommend?
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So, I mean, those are various ones we could just go through.
Pick one.
Which one you want to do?
All right.
Let's start with this one by Gabrielle Wilson.
I didn't click on her to see where she lives, but when we built our house, our contractor put in concrete countertops with epoxy over them.
Over the last year and a half, the epoxy has yellowed so much.
Is there a way to safely remove the epoxy and leave the concrete and seal it?
Attach your pictures, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And the answer is yes.
And depending on how much work you want to put into it.
So what are your thoughts?
Well, I think of the diamond pads that you developed.
These diamond pads, you know, you saw a hole in the market for this issue, where if you're going into somebody's home, you want to use a dust extractor, you want to use a sander, you want to do it dry to remove whatever coating had been put on the concrete.
And there really wasn't anything out there besides sandpaper to do that.
And the sandpaper wore down really quick.
So you developed these diamond pads.
Yeah, you developed these diamond pads and we have them for Bosch, Metabo, Mirka, Festool.
You can go to kodiakpro.com to buy them.
But specifically for this, for when somebody used some type of topical, a urethane, an epoxy, whatever, it failed, you got to get it off.
That's what these are for.
So my first thought is to Gabrielle is pick up some pads, get the corresponding sander, whether you buy a Bosch or Mirka or Festool, whatever it's going to be, and get a good dust extractor.
That's going to be a pretty expensive initial investment, but you need those tools to remove that coating in your house without creating a ton of dust and not spending weeks trying to sand through a sandpaper.
That's number one.
Number two, you're going to need to coat it with something that's not going to have that problem.
Now, I'm going to sound partial because it's Kodiak Pro, but we have a sealer, ICT Protect and ICT Fusion that are complete game changers.
But again, it's one of these things that, you know, I'm not going to say you have to be a pro to apply it, but you need to be diligent.
It's not just mix up something and dump it on the countertop, it's just probably what the person that did the epoxy had done.
They probably just got countertop epoxy, they mixed it up, they poured it on top and they walked away.
Well, this is what you end up with.
So when you're using Fusion and Protect, we have instructions, we're going to be filming some updated tutorial videos here soon, but you definitely want to apply it correctly.
But if you do that, you strip the old sealer, you apply the new sealer, you're going to have a much more durable, long-lasting surface.
The other thing that might be the easiest, again, time is money, you have to do the calculation, is maybe just pull it out and redo it.
That might be the simplest, easiest way.
By the time you do all that, you could have just cast new concrete countertops, sealed them with the proper sealer to begin with, if I could speak, and you would cut your time in half versus struggling with that.
That's my opinion.
What's your thoughts?
Oh, I 100% agree.
My only critique there would be the epoxy.
Sanding through the epoxy, number one, if you're going to use diamond pads, it will be absolutely effective.
Make sure you use a slow speed.
But depending on how thick, and I know you're not seeing the pictures here, and you know, epoxies are usually super glossy.
So this one looks, these photos look like it's on there pretty heavy.
And so you're probably going to need a stripper of some sort to start it off with, you know, slather it to...
That would be my first.
Start with some chemical stripper of some sort.
See where you can pull the epoxy, and then move to the diamond sanding once you get a large amount of that scraped off.
After that, yeah, your choice is sealing.
In this case, the complaint was about yellowing.
So, just be aware.
And without being biased, just be aware.
Your things are probably gonna end up yellowing over time as well.
It doesn't make me anti-em.
Just be aware.
That's probably gonna happen again.
So, maybe choose one that moving forward, even though the manufacturer, excuse me, the person representing and distributing probably is not gonna tell you this, but I would say choose one that is gonna be easier to strip and reseal X years from now, so that it's not such a pain in the butt.
Or you go with something like a reactive technology that is easier to maintain, but it's gonna take a little more tooling up front to apply.
It's a lot what the professionals are using.
Yeah.
But longevity, wear, all that is go shoot 20 times further.
Exactly.
It sounds like it's a homeowner question, a DIY, which we have plenty of DIYers that go the Kodiak Pro route.
And so it's doable, but it just really depends on what your comfort level is with Appliance Sealer.
So without getting deep into this, deep in the weeds, it just says her contractor.
So, well, I say her, I don't know if she's married, I don't know what's going on there.
But, you know, yeah, I mean, the products that are carried for us are extremely easy to use and can be learned how to use very easily as well.
Yeah.
Well, that brings me, I have a note here, one thing I want to talk about today, and this kind of ties into it, is maintenance of concrete, whether it's countertops or sinks or tile.
What's your advice, Jon, to somebody that's listening on how to maintain their concrete?
Well, it depends on the sealer.
So, like, I mean, a basic acrylic, man, I hate to say waxes, man.
I hate waxes.
So, if they're sealed with a basic acrylic, it's just going to be re-applications.
Plain and simple.
You know, once a year or so, light scuff, reapply, and keep rejuvenating.
Things like the urethanes that are available, really up the same bough, you know, the same role there.
It is going to happen.
You are going to scratch through.
We've talked about this before, but, you know, depending on what gets through that scratch, creating straight lines or whatever the case may be, will dictate long-term maintenance.
But in that case, just wiping them down.
If you're talking about things like reactive technologies, my number one recommendation is SiO2, or a ceramic-based technology.
Water-based.
I like a company called Cerakote, because it's water-based.
Super simple to apply.
Spray it into a microfiber cloth, wipe your countertops down, and you continue to rejuvenate them from near, from here until you decide you want a new countertop surface for a different color or a different texture.
What about cleaning products?
What should people use?
What should they steer away from?
Mild cleaning products, pull trigger spray, multi-purpose cleaners are typically your go-to, and you avoid harsh abrasives.
That's all.
No sanding, no AJAX.
Who uses harsh abrasives?
I mean, I don't know.
We always said that for years.
Like, who's using a comet under countertops?
Right, I don't think anybody, to be honest with you.
Most of it's soap and water or, again, maybe this is, how long have we been doing this?
20 years.
So, you know, your Clorox-based, multi-purpose cleaner and Windex, maybe those just weren't available then.
So maybe that's when people like pulled out the AJAX and like, I'm gonna scrub it.
I don't know.
But you almost have to say it because somebody will do it.
If you don't say it, somebody's gonna do it.
And then wonder, yeah, why?
Yeah, no harsh abrasives, no harsh abrasives.
That's it.
And that's really because of the sealing technology.
And depending on what sealer you go with is going to determine, you know, what version of light abrasion can handle because they're not all the same.
I mean, you may have one that, like a certain, your thing that I know is fairly soft, where a white, scratch bright pad, you know what I mean?
Or a lot of those scotch bright sponges that people pick up.
And even the blue side will end up scuffing the surface over time.
It just is what it is versus other ones where, no, I mean, you take diamond pads before you can break anything loose.
So it really depends.
I mean, that's the tough thing with all this stuff.
I mean, we try to give these generalities to put under a big umbrella of what should and shouldn't be done.
But at the end of the day, a lot of it depends on what the ceiling technology was that used.
Like, you know, like an epoxy.
The reality is, you know, you slide a cast iron pan across an epoxy countertop.
And you know, it just is what it is.
It's gonna, it's gonna scratch.
If not deep or like, that's not a scratch.
That's a deep scuff.
Okay, well, you know, whatever.
Whatever it is, it's not easily removed.
And same with some of the available urethane based technologies, the same thing.
So depending on your lifestyle, if things like cast iron pans, or maybe you like to bake and pull things out and put it onto the countertop, then, you know, just be aware that those don't handle it very well.
That doesn't mean they're bad.
It just means that they don't handle it very well.
And you gotta learn to live your lifestyle around that.
I use, and I have ICT sealer in my house.
I use, and that's what I've used now since 2011 or 2012, so I made the switch 100 percent, but I use Fantastic, I use 409, I use Clorox wipes, I use Windex with vinegar, I use regular Windex, I use whatever I grab from underneath the sink is what I use.
But when I used to use Topicals, when I was using EcoTuff and E32K and EAP and all those sealers, those Topicals, vinegar was a big problem.
Is that still a problem today with acrylics and urethanes?
With acrylics, yes, and yes, and urethanes, no question.
And when you say trouble, again, this is where it gets into the weeds.
You can certainly wipe the countertops with vinegar and it won't hurt them, but if the vinegar sits for a minute, then it oftentimes could cause blushing and whiting.
Gotcha.
Yeah, that's what I would have if people used vinegar.
I used to tell people on my care and instruction sheets back then, do not use vinegar in your kitchen, like at all.
Do not use vinegar because, and same thing with acids, like limes and lemons, was if they got lemon juice or lime juice, or they're making margaritas or whatever, and they get all over the topical, it would create white spots from the acid and it wouldn't come out.
I went to Buddy Rhodes house in 2000, probably 2005, I'd have to guess, and went to his house.
He showed me around, showed me his countertops and everything, and he'd had a party the night before.
He had like black concrete countertops, and Buddy Rhodes sealer back then was an acrylic, and then they used to put a beeswax over it, and it had worn off years prior at this point.
But I went to his house and there's all these white spots on his black concrete from the limes.
And he's like, you know, people always complain about this.
People complain.
And he picked up a bottle of olive oil and just poured it on the countertop, and took a paper towel and smeared it around and then wiped it off.
And he's like, look, no spots, they're gone.
Which is true, they went away.
I mean, they didn't really go away, but the oil soaked in and darkened the surface, and there you go, bada bing, bada boom.
But I used to tell people, no acid, you know, no acids, no vinegar, which vinegar is an acid, but no vinegar, because it's just going to attack the surface.
I don't worry about that anymore with ICT.
I haven't worried about that in a long time, but like I said, it's probably still an issue for a lot of people if they're using topicals.
It's funny you brought that up.
I was just reading a post not long ago where actually Buddy recommended that to somebody.
It was a countertop that was just, I mean, it was in bad shape, bad.
And a lot of posters came through.
I'll have to see if I can find that one, just because we're talking about sealers.
And Buddy came in like, no man, olive oil.
So you probably didn't notice it then.
But no, olive oil, I would strongly discourage because olive oils goes rancid in light.
So putting olive oil on a countertop is going to go rancid, period.
And if you look at anything related to olive oil, it should be stored in a dark place, like, you know, pull out cupboard.
People who stored on the countertop itself, like a lot of people do, I don't know who we don't.
But if you set it out there in a very short period of time, your olive oils goes rancid.
And so you're going to, your countertop, or your kitchen is going to start getting this.
And maybe it's okay for some people, this unusual smell from the rancid oil.
Yeah, yeah.
Sorry, I'm buying some Kodiak Yeti merch right now, Jon.
Just letting you know, you'll see a charge on our company credit card.
Yeah, I got to restock.
I don't have any for the website.
So where's the credit card?
Oh, you were scanning.
I was just seeing if I could find that one.
But anyway, yeah, regardless, no, olive oil.
Oh, here it is right here.
Yeah.
Oh, and these countertops are just hammered.
So let's see.
Justin Berg came in.
Yeah, the typical is just like this one.
You want me to read it?
Yeah, go ahead.
OK.
Can I just paint stain over these?
And you're not seeing the picture, but, you know, a picture, a gray countertop just hammered.
These are my clean countertops had for many years.
They are structurally intact.
But these stains have got to go.
I'm going to be the one tackling this project.
So I'm looking for easiest, most DIY friendly way to get these countertops looking better.
I've already taken a spray bottle and water and a sanding block to these and was hopeful that you, you know, any help, but it didn't.
Boy, I literally want to do something, gray stain or dye.
Can I paint them, yada, yada, yada?
She's in Buffalo, New York.
So unfortunately, the same answers there.
I mean, I love this.
I want to do the easiest, most DIY friendly.
So in that case, sure, soak them in oil, but I would say mineral oil, not olive oil.
Yeah.
I mean, and if you're happy, not just because yes, this is covered in white, bleachy spots from lots of acid and junk.
That'll certainly make the white spots go away, but that's not going to clean up the texture left by the spot.
The acid, the edge, the surface.
Yeah.
So if this person is okay with the general wear, that to me almost looks like, you know, if you can picture a bunch of white spills everywhere with the round edges and dots and circles and et cetera, et cetera, there's some rings that I see.
I mean, a bunch of junky stuff.
So soak it in mineral oil.
Just be aware the white will go away, but all the same, you know, as soon as you get in light, you're going to see all the texture changes.
All of that, let's say, surface abnormalities are all going to be there.
Yeah.
No question about it.
So, and I just noticed, yeah, there's 44 posts, 44 answers to this.
Oh, nice to see a guy say no, covered in epoxy or polyaspartic.
No, I wouldn't do that.
Well, you can.
I mean, Jon, it's an option.
It's an option.
No, you certainly can.
But if longevity, then there's a thing, right?
At the end of the day, this is not against anybody.
When they use those kinds of products, they're hoping it's going to be quick.
And, you know, let's say from a whoever point of view, you know, epoxies are considered durable.
And they are.
They're used a lot of floors and all that kind of stuff.
But all of us, all of us have been on commercial floors that have been sealed with epoxies.
We see the, you know, now take that floor and move it up to your countertops.
It's just not life-friendly under that circumstance.
That's all.
That doesn't make epoxy bad.
Yeah, well, people aren't preparing, you know, whatever guacamole on the floor they're doing on the concrete.
And that's where the acid comes in and, you know, lemons and limes and vinegar and all that kind of stuff.
That's not happening on the floor.
So it's just a different thing, which kind of brings me to another thing I wanted to talk about, Sean, which is sinks in kitchens, which kind of plays into this.
Is I've had a few people reach out to me over the last, well, one person in particular, but I've had this conversation a couple of times about kitchen sinks and I don't recommend them.
I do not recommend kitchen sinks because people are so abusive to the sink.
They throw cast iron, they throw whatever in the sink, they spill orange juice and red wine and all this kind of stuff, and they might leave for a long weekend and say, I'll do it when I get back, I'll take care of the issues when I get back.
That stuff just sits there and it just sits there and it dries on the surface and they get chips and scratches from all the metal just getting tossed in.
So, Kitchen Sinks, not a big fan, I always do under mount.
I know some people have done a hybrid where they do a stainless steel bottom and then concrete sides.
It looks cool and it probably reduces a lot of it because the stainless is on the bottom.
There's ways to do that.
Yeah, stainless steel or copper.
Yeah, but yeah, I just, whenever a customer asks me, and I don't do a whole lot of countertops anymore, but when I do do them, when a customer asks me about a kitchen sink, I always steer them away from it because it's just a life-friendly aspect of concrete.
That's not a place where concrete should be used, in my opinion.
100% agree.
Yeah.
Yeah, vanities, sinks, I mean, you know, your bathroom sinks all day long.
I mean, they'll last such a long time until you're done with it and want to just change out something new.
But kitchen sinks, they just take an abuse that, you know, concrete is not really set up for.
And more importantly, it's the, again, we're talking about sealers.
There is no sealing technology that's going to extend the life of that bottom of your sink specifically to hold up at anything near as well as, you know, the cast irons, the porcelains, the, you know, the stainless steels, the coppers.
You know, you're thinking of copper.
When copper patina is over time, well, that's just beautiful.
When the bottom of your concrete countertop sink, you know, wears and etches and erodes, not so beautiful.
Yeah.
It just is what it is.
Yeah.
Yeah, Dusty, we used to do training at his house in Tennessee, his first house that he had there in shop, and he had done a kitchen sink, and we would, he would bring people up to his house, and, you know, we would tour his house and see all the cool concrete stuff he'd made, but he had a kitchen sink, and it was a constant upkeep issue, because the bottom, this is when he was doing heavy stain as well, so he was casting everything like in a light gray color and then staining it brown, and the bottom of the sink would wear just from abrasion, so it would wear the stain off that was on the surface, and so he would just constantly have to restain it, reseal it, it'd look great for a while, and then, you know, just the pots and pans and acids and everything would wear it away, and he'd have to do it again, do it again, do it again.
I think he learned his lesson.
I don't think he does kitchen sinks anymore.
If he does, I'm sure he gives a pretty strong disclaimer about not recommending it.
But yeah, it's tough.
Well, it brings me to another topic, Jon, and that is design and color options for concrete.
So this, this is something I don't think we've talked about this at all, is what's possible with concrete as far as design options.
Let's speak specifically to, let's say, countertops.
Design options for countertops and color options for countertops.
That's your cue.
Well, I'm not sure where you're going.
I mean, color options.
Well, let me fill in the gaps.
Your ability to create color is going to be dependent on the background.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Starting with a white versus a gray, that'll definitely open up a lot more color, color options.
So let's start with design options for countertops.
What are some design options?
Integral drain boards.
We don't see a lot of those anymore.
When I started in 2004, I did, I did tons of integral drain boards, tons, integral soap dishes, tons, integral cutting boards that were removable, that dropped down in the surface, tons of those.
Really?
Dude, when I was first getting started, every project wanted that stuff.
And maybe they wanted it because they saw it.
When I had my shop in Tempe, I had a display up front and I had those things on display.
Integral cutting boards, integral drain boards, all that kind of stuff.
I had little countertop sections and people loved it.
And they always wanted it.
Integral soap dishes, all that kind of fun stuff.
Interesting.
Yeah, see, I've always steered people.
I mean, can they be done?
Yes.
Should they be done?
I always thought it was a whole different conversation.
So I've always steered everybody away.
Like, it will even go back, right?
Everybody like, oh, you put in trivets.
Oh my God, trivets are a pain in the butt.
No how, no way.
Before you know it, I'd go in to various projects who are one of the countertops now pulled out.
And everywhere around the trivets, over years of use, it doesn't get clean.
So, you know, it's just disgusting.
Oh, it's just gross.
It's just gross.
Well, the whole trivet thing, I mean, Cheng started that with doing the inlaid stainless steel where they would put rubber in first, and then when they popped it out, they'd epoxy in stainless rods that would be raised above the concrete, and you would set the pan on it.
Yeah, and then people were doing ball bearings, and stainless ball bearings, where they would do these little half-round circles in the concrete form, and then flip it out and epoxy in the bearings, and those were a thing.
But yeah, it's a cleanliness issue.
No, yes, they're a total pain in the butt.
I haven't seen the ones that then they would raise them up, picture like a cabinet handle.
But again, it's too hard to clean and get around.
You can't just wipe.
I saw the same thing with the, like you're talking about, the drain boards.
Okay, and photos, yeah, like, wow, that's pretty cool.
But it doesn't take, anybody who takes their pan, their bowl, wash it, set it on that for a certain period of time, getting into each one of those grooves and actually cleaning them out so that you're not in the long-term, like, destroying them?
No, man, no, they just end up getting gross.
Yeah, the drain boards I did, I had two designs that I made rubber molds for.
One was a wave mold, so it was these kind of like, almost like corrugated metal.
So if you imagine corrugated metal going at an angle down into the sink, you could set pots and pans, but there was no raised metal.
So it was very easy to clean because it was a smooth surface.
That was a really cool one.
I wish I still had that mold.
And the other one was the same idea, but just smooth.
So it didn't have any raised ridges, it didn't have anything like that, it was just smooth.
But the one that was smooth, I would do a secondary recess where we could do a stainless steel or a cutting board that crossed across.
So people could put this perforated stainless tray over it, it would slide.
They could put their pots and pans, they would drip, and then the water would run down and go into the sink.
And that was cool.
People liked, I don't know how much they used it, but I think they liked the formability of concrete.
They liked that they could do these things that you couldn't really do with granite or a solid surface, per se.
But it was available with concrete.
So I think that's why people liked it.
With sealer, it was an issue because a lot of the sealers didn't like constant water being dripped and setting on them.
So that was an issue back then.
But now with fusion, I'm just thinking like those things would be a non-issue with the sealer that we're using today with the constant water.
But I don't know, I might bring it back.
I might come up with a form, a mold, to do that again and start offering it, maybe do it when we do our next house, do the concrete countertops with the integral drain board, maybe the integral cutting board.
I haven't done it in forever, man.
It'd be kind of fun to bring it back.
But I guess where I'm going with that, Jon, is that's an opportunity to upsell a client.
That's an opportunity.
These things add value to the client, and it adds value to the project.
And so if a client came to you for concrete, and you're, say, 200 bucks a square foot, and you're like, you know, but we also offer these options.
If you want to do that, we can do an integral drain board.
That's an additional 1,500.
We can do an integral cutting board.
That's an additional whatever, because you're going to include the cost of the cutting board.
You have to order that.
But cutting board or whatever, those can all be add-ons where you can bop, bop, bop, bop, you know, bump up the cost.
And a lot of that is profit, because you've already made the form.
If it's a form that you just keep in your shop, and you can just plug in, you've already done the work.
And so now it's just plug it in, silicone around the perimeter, cast the concrete, that's what I would do, cast the concrete.
And that's just a money maker at that point.
I need to bring that stuff back, man.
Back in the day, I used to be a lot better at this than I am now.
Yeah, right?
You know?
No, see, again, I've always, like legit, I have always taught clients out of it.
I think there's much better choices to move forward.
Like, you know, I've talked about an integral drain board.
Well, no, pick up a bamboo cutting board, set it and put a towel on over the top of it and, you know, set your wet dishes on that.
But it doesn't look cool, Jon.
It doesn't look cool.
It doesn't look cool.
Oh, there you go.
That's the thing about this.
Yeah, I'm a more like, you know, function over form, I guess.
Well, I get what you're saying.
But if you're in the business of selling things to customers, if you offer things they want, maybe it's not the best, you know, like, well, yeah, you're gonna eat up this countertop space by doing this drain board, and now, you know, it's slanted.
But if you have a cutting board that slides over it, well, now you've regained that flat area, so you can still use it as countertop.
But it's just something you could add on.
Maybe it brings an additional $2,000 of the project.
That's just money in the bank at that point.
That's what I'm talking about, is those little details.
I used to have, I had these steel pieces made, press broke, that I could put in my form to do these puzzle seams.
That was the thing I was doing back in the day, where the seams, instead of being straight, they would be kind of like a, I don't know, like an Aztec block or something.
It's hard to even explain, but they zigzagged.
And then I had some other ones that vertically did the same thing, they would key.
So when you put the 2 slabs together, the vertical would key in, if you can understand what I'm saying with that, kind of like a Z, like Z flashing, but vertically.
But yeah, I had all kinds of cool stuff back then that I was doing.
And, but over time, I moved away from countertops, I went more to sinks, and then from sinks, I went to furniture and, you know, and all that kind of stuff fell away over time.
And I gave the molds away or sold them to people.
And now I kind of wish I had them back because they were really cool.
But anyways, the second part of this that I wanted to touch on is color options, which, you know, I initially talked about.
But color options is something that, again, because of my own design philosophies, I don't talk about it enough.
You know, I'm kind of the in and out philosophy.
In and out burger, burgers, fries, milkshakes.
I think...
Yeah, keep it simple.
Yeah.
I think giving customers too many options will cause paralysis by analysis.
When I was first in the concrete game, this guy, what was his name?
Murray.
Murray.
Murray Clarke.
Murray would color match any Benjamin Moore paint color and make you a pigment to go in your concrete.
And Benjamin Moore has three paint fans, three decks, and in each one, a couple thousand colors in each one, right?
And I would go meet with a customer and I'd bring these three paint decks.
One was called Classic.
I can still see them.
I'd bring these paint fans and they'd say, what colors can I do?
And I'd say, any one of these colors.
Really?
Any one you want, right?
And they would go down the rabbit hole and they would sit there and they would hem haul back and forth between Dove beige or alabaster, whatever, cream, right?
And if you looked at them side by side, they were exactly the same color.
There was like zero difference.
You could not discern any difference, but they would just be torn up internally.
I don't know, do I want Dove beige?
Yeah, too much.
Yeah, they go on and on and on and on.
And I tried to explain to them, listen, concrete, it changes.
It's an organic material, number one, but I'll cast it.
And it'll be close.
It'll be really close, but it may not be perfect.
And it may be perfect today, but in a year, it'll be a different color.
It's an organic material, like wood.
But it just caused so much chaos with a customer that I started limiting the colors.
And where I'm at today is I have three standard colors, which essentially is dark gray, light gray, and a white, are my three standard colors.
And anything beyond that is a custom color.
And any custom color, I charge a 35% upcharge on the project, just a flat upcharge for custom.
And what that does for me is it steers people to these three colors, because they're like, you know what, I like that dark gray.
That dark gray, I think, is going to work perfect.
Awesome.
Easy enough.
But for the customers that want custom, it builds in the hassle of ordering a pigment, making the samples, sending them the sample, you know, the whole thing.
So that 35% upcharge.
But it's one of the things that I think color is, one of the great things about concrete that we have that other materials don't have is the ability for full customization from texture to color to highlights to these inlays to these details.
No other material has this variability of the form, this formability.
Right.
And so it's not something that we've talked about enough or at all.
And that is something that there is an opportunity there as concrete companies to provide your customer value and to create different, differentiate, I can't say that word.
You can differ yourself or distance yourself from granite, from silestone, from caesar stone, from butcher block, whatever, because you have these options that nobody else has.
What are your thoughts?
Well, I agree with you 100 percent.
Yeah.
I mean, to me, that's one of the beauties, let's say strength and inherent weaknesses of concrete is, you can color darner or anything, but at the same time, as much as, well, that sounds so easy, well, super pigments need to be treated a certain way.
If you want to bring, like some of those guys are bringing the bright blues and pinks and stuff into, into sinks.
And so super pigments have to be treated a certain way.
Oxides, you know, you and I have changed all that now, where we treat all pigments the same and what their loading procedure is.
But, you know, there are, let's say, intricacies to color and concrete, you know, the gray background versus white background and so forth and so on.
So we do everything in white, which allows for much better brilliance and depth of colors than grays, meaning gray cement and so forth and so on.
But you know, come on, man, it's, there's so much room to do cool stuff with this material.
The question becomes for me, it is, if you do something super cool, does it become timeless?
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
So like, does a bright blue sink, which I think is brilliant, is that still going to be amazing in wherever scenario you put it in, you know what I mean, 20 years from now.
Yeah.
It'll still be gorgeous and blue, assuming, you know, it's cast and cured and sealed in the whole nine yards, compared to grays.
Grays seem a little more timeless.
They go with everything.
That's a good point.
Yeah.
Color is one of the things that there's opportunities to make things that are beautiful and there's opportunities to make things that are hideous.
And color is the difference between those two things.
I made a countertop a long time ago for somebody that wanted turquoise.
I've told this story before, but this customer in Tempe, turquoise was her favorite color.
Two things about this customer.
Number one, she loved turquoise.
Excuse me.
She loved turquoise.
The second thing is, she had these black Mexican river pebbles, those rounded black rocks from Mexico.
Those big rounded rocks that she collected from the beach, and she wanted me to put them in her concrete.
And I explained to her, listen, we need a flat section.
I'm going to put those in, but we're not going to see very much.
And her mind just couldn't comprehend it.
She's like, but this rock is so big.
I'm like, I know, but you have to understand.
It's only going to touch this, whatever.
All right, so I do the color sample of the turquoise.
It is like neon turquoise, burn your eyes out turquoise.
I do the sample, she looks at it, she loves it.
She approves it.
She's like, oh my God, it's my favorite color ever.
You sure you want to do this?
Yes.
All right.
All right, all right.
So this is back when I still was doing installation.
So I, you know, we template everything.
I came back to my shop, formed it, cast it, de-molded, processed and put the rocks in.
When I processed it, I water polished.
Dude, those rocks that were the size of maybe a baseball, all you saw was about a BB size of black spots.
BB, BB, BB, because it was only touching that much of the surface, right?
So anyways, but water polish it, seal it.
And I go to install it.
Her husband's home.
She's not home.
I think she was like a professor at ASU, but I go to install it and he's like, oh, oh, oh, okay.
So, you know, we put them in.
I mean, it's the exact color she approved.
We put them in, seam it all.
You know, this is still when I was doing color match sealant.
So, seam everything and it's done.
And I mean, craftsmanship wise, it was awesome.
Color wise is what she approved.
She walks in, she goes, wow, that's a lot of color.
I'm like, yeah, that's a lot of color.
She's like, well, it is what it is.
I'm like, yeah, you know, I mean, this is what you approved.
Had she gone that turquoise route, but did a toned down version, a gray color with a turquoise undertone, it would have been so much better.
It would have been beautiful.
It would have been a natural color that you would see, you know, in rock or something.
Like a beautiful muted gray turquoise would have been a much, much better choice, but she went with this ultra bold, bright color.
We could do it, but it wasn't necessarily the best choice.
So yeah, I think you make a good point, Jon, about steering your customers, because sometimes, I mean, I've done bright red sinks, like Fire Engine Red, I've done canary yellow pieces.
I've done things that I'm not proud of.
You know, I don't post them anywhere.
I don't even take a photo of them, because they were just like, this is not attractive.
This isn't good looking concrete, but it's what the customer wanted.
But trying to steer customers in a direction of something that they'll be happy with today, tomorrow, 10 years from now, 20 years from now.
They'll still love it.
Well, I think it depends on how a project all comes together.
So again, I'm going to give a shout out to those guys in Canada that are doing the bright sinks.
When you see what the, you know, the situation that they're putting those sinks in, they become timeless.
I mean, it really is cool, man.
They're doing focal point sinks.
They're doing small sinks on like a brass pedestal.
So they'll do a bright color, but it's like a jewel in the space.
It's not the entire space.
You see how they did the whatever tiles being chosen or wallpaper, whatever the case may be.
And you see that all come together.
And some of it to me, this based on where I happened to live, if you go down to Downtown Angels Camp, one of the coolest things that I love about those old buildings, which compared to where you were in Arkansas, they're not as old as that.
But you go into some of these old bathrooms and there's these old marble sinks, right?
And when the marble used to be ground and polished and put all these recesses in there that was all done in the marble, and it's a very timed piece.
So you know when it was put in, basically right around the early 1900s kind of thing, just based on what it is.
And you're like, well, that's brilliant.
And that will still look gorgeous 200 years from now, you know?
What I'm picturing is, yeah, things that don't hold up to time would be like, hey, I'm doing a kitchen remodel, white cabinets, yellow handles, and I've always liked canary yellow.
So let's do the countertops in canary yellow.
And you might for a minute go like, oh, that is awesome.
But within a few years, you're like, not so much.
Or the kind of kitchens you go in and everything's white on white on white, and it looks so sterile.
You're like, oh my God, it reminds me of being in a hospital.
Like, no, this isn't going to work.
So, shoot, why can't I think of Sam's company?
But what they're doing with it is you're absolutely right.
Those sinks look like jewels.
I mean, they sit there between the faucets and the, whatever, the countertop.
I'm going to call it the cabinet they're putting on, which isn't always cabinet, and then the plumbing, and then how it's set up in the background.
I mean, they're stunning.
Yeah, well, they're focal points, which it should be.
But if you're doing a kitchen, a countertop, the surrounding countertops can all be a nice neutral color, and then maybe do the island in a bright color, because that's something you can swap out fairly easily when you grow tired of it.
You know, if you want to go crazy custom color, you could do that.
But, you know, color is an opportunity.
If I were a concrete artisan, just starting out, I would come out with a line of maybe five to ten standard colors.
And, but I would, I'd be very intentional with the colors I chose.
I would pick things that are timeless, but aren't really available in other materials, things that maybe are on trend right now, which is what Sam is doing.
He's doing very on trend colors.
I'd pick colors like that.
And I'd offer that to customers because that gives you something that's different than everybody else that you can't get with granite, that you can't get these in materials.
Right.
And that gives you an opportunity again to say, here's our standard line.
It could be the, a couple of grays.
These are $200 square foot.
And then our premium colors are $300 square foot.
And that's going to be these.
And boom, right there, you just 33% upsell just by having these colors available.
And the customers, if they see it, if you give them the paint deck, like the whole, you know, back in the day Murray Clarke thing, paralysis by analysis.
But if you give them actual concrete samples made with the concrete you're using, sealed with the sealer you're using, so this is the color they're going to get and they can see five to ten colors.
Now you've limited it.
And now it's a very simple process for them to make a choice.
So I think there's opportunity there.
I think it's smart for people to do.
I should be doing it more than I do it.
And I think Sam's doing a good job of it.
Sam's doing that.
Wade Bloom, he has a great color sample set that he sends to customers.
But yeah, that's an area that concrete artisans should put some time and energy into to increase their profits.
100%.
Yeah.
Well, Jon, what else?
Anything else you want to talk about?
I mean, this is we're at 50 minutes right now.
Anything else?
We can get back on Sealer next time.
I mean, I just since we were talking, I was still on that page and looking at some of it.
And well, here I'm going to say, you know what's interesting to me?
Hit me.
It's interesting to me how tone-deaf material suppliers, I hope we don't do this man, how tone-deaf material suppliers can get.
So I was looking and there's about three more Sealer related questions.
And one of them, shoot, I didn't have it in front of me.
So I'm not going to go out, you know, I couldn't figure out how to do a poll.
And I'm looking for sealer recommendations.
Thanks in advance for being generous, you know, yada, yada, yada.
And literally within two posts below that, hi, I have concrete countertops.
I decided they need to sand off the sealer and replay.
So here's what's funny.
I think it's funny.
In one of these postings that I'm not going to go into, the very, let's say, the technology that was used to seal, which is now being asked how to sand off and reseal because of problems, is then you go two posts up and the same promoter of that sealer is telling you how amazing it is.
And that you should never need to reseal.
I just find that funny.
It's tone deaf.
I'm just going to call it tone deaf.
Well, it's tone deaf, but it's also, this is one of the things that we used to talk about a lot.
We try not to talk about as much anymore because it can turn people off.
No, because it would be seen as a negative, yeah.
One of the things that really sets us apart, Kodiak Pro and Concrete Design School, is we still do this for a living.
We still, right now in my shop, I have two custom sinks I'm building right now.
I'm shipping one out right now.
Like, this is what I do and I have done it for 20 years.
You're doing projects.
How we're different and why what we talk about in the podcast and the materials that we've developed and the things that we sell and the classes we teach, what makes them different than every other distributor out there of products and training is we do this.
We do this.
Well, see, but if you read, I'm just going to read one of these comments here again.
I just find them humorous, humorous.
I have never waxed a counter that I've made in the last 25 years.
Oh my God.
You mean the one?
25 years ago.
Yeah, 25 years ago.
Oh my goodness.
I mean, this kind of stuff is just funny and you'll never have to reseal a surface unless you did so.
But we talked about this before, and I'm not going to get this into a rant rant.
So the same person, although is totally pumping product in one.
And again, God bless you.
I think that's amazing.
Support your products.
I think that's great.
Completely steered clear of the other one that was asking how to repair the situation.
I'm not on this post.
I'm not on the post, but I'm going to guess just based on what you're saying of who this person is.
And if I'm correct, well, if I'm correct, I'm not going to say their name, but if I'm correct, this person about a year ago was saying, I will never sell a product.
I don't recommend products.
I only teach from scratch.
Blah, blah, blah.
Is this the same person?
Yeah.
Okay.
So a year ago, it's mind boggling.
A year ago, this person was staying on their soapbox to try to throw us under the bus and say, we never in our workshops recommend products.
We don't sell products.
We only do from scratch as if you're baking pancakes or something.
We only do from scratch.
And now if you go to their website, it says like they're the premier vendor of the world's best material.
Oh, that's crazy.
Like, dude, a year ago, you were completely anti.
But, you know, now that's all gone.
So, yeah, I don't know.
Well, it's the same person we just talked in the last podcast where I'm not going to go in the names again, but had some difficulties with a certain project that two years into the project, after using the sealer recommended, was having the white circle show up from water sitting on the countertop.
And when he called said individual, basically the only answer he got is, you did something wrong.
Oh, I did something wrong two years ago?
Really?
Yeah.
And it's just crazy, man.
It's just crazy, but that's a de facto though, because when I was having problems with EAP back in the day, it was operator error, you know, and that was the same thing that sealer seller told that to every single person that had EAP failing, that it was their problem.
And the thing that was funny was they were telling every person they were the only person having problems.
And we all start talking to each other like, are you having problems?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you called so and so?
Yeah.
And what did he say?
He said, well, I'm the only person having a problem.
I must have done something wrong.
Well, that's weird because he told me that and he told them that and he told that person that.
So that's the de facto.
It's like the wash your hands of it.
But I guess it goes back to if you don't know what you're doing and you don't use the products, doing the things that you're selling the products for, you wouldn't know how to resolve it.
You wouldn't know what was going sideways.
You wouldn't know what the underlying issues were.
You just don't know what you don't know.
You're just selling the flavor of the week.
Hey, we got a new one.
We're going to call this one whatever, PF4444.
And have you tried that one?
No, what about PF445?
We got a new one.
You just keep them on the hamster wheel.
And you know, oh, that one didn't work.
Well, hey, young man, we got a brand new one.
Just came in the door.
We use a UV light to seal this one.
It's amazing.
I'll never forget the UVs.
I was literally talking to someone about that the other day, you know, about the UVs.
I mean, I laugh now, but, you know, like all of us, man, we have struggled over the years, all of us, anybody listen, we have all struggled over the years, trying to follow manufacturer recommendations and trying to find answers to get over whatever issues we had.
And you know, I mean, yeah, the UV, it sounded so brilliant.
I mean, it sounded amazing until, yeah, how much were those lights again?
Oh my God, dude, I bought one.
It was like a couple thousand bucks.
Yeah.
And then after a couple of months, when everybody's sealer was failing, you couldn't give them away.
Like nobody would, you're like, I got a UV light for sale.
Crickets, nobody wanted it because, yeah, it came and went like that.
It was like-
Right, like fire.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
It was the flavor of the month for about a month.
And then everybody that got suckered in to buying those stupid lights and the crappy sealer, you know, we're trying to offload these UV lights.
Well, that's how it's been for a long time, right?
When somebody pumps up something new and we all know we're having problems with something, even though it might be the same person just comes, hey, I got something new.
We were like moss to flame.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Just like, oh, hey, yeah.
Well, you know, geez, Louise.
And anyway, it was definitely an interesting time.
No question about it.
Well, we're lucky we survived.
I mean, honestly, looking back, we're lucky.
We're lucky we made it this far with all the stuff that we were doing back then, like the horrible materials, the horrible sealer, the horrible advice that we would receive.
Luck played into it big time.
It was just one of the things.
When I first started my company, I would make a sink for somebody for the very first time, meaning like they would come to me and say, hey, I want a ramp sink, a wedge sink.
I mean, they had all kinds of names from back then.
Oh, wedge sink, can you do that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We want it to be like 10 feet long.
Can you do it?
Absolutely.
Go back to my shop.
I have no idea how to do that.
I mean, literally the first time.
And I have to like completely, there was no forums out there, there was nobody to call, there was nobody, you know, you're just winging it and figuring it out.
And that was really about the first five to seven years of me being in business was just figuring out the most basic things.
And then, you know, ever since then, it's been refining and improving and finding perfection in the process little by little by little.
And now it's just been incremental improvements and refinement to get where we are today.
But yeah, I mean, luck played into it big time, big time.
Right.
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
And I think a responsible material manufacturer, that is what we do.
I mean, that's taking a strap back and see, I mean, that's what's made the transition from having a product that I call satin that I was not happy again, going from everybody from Evonic and hell, I'm not going to go through all the names, you know, trying all of their matting based agents.
And even working with some of their chemists like, wow, if we modified this one a little bit, but you know, everything on the shelf and they just, they wouldn't or couldn't, I shouldn't say wouldn't.
As it turns out, they couldn't give me what I wanted or needed because a lot of those things were based on film based technologies and just don't work well in my ceiling technology.
So they'd settle out and cake up and so forth and so on.
It was just a constant battle, constant battle.
And it's living through that as a responsible, both user and manufacturer to then take a look outside the box and go, okay, man, I've worked inside this box as much as I can.
So how do we look outside the box and then development of MatteMax?
I just had that conversation with two people today, just letting them know that, you know, Satin is going to be gone, you know, I'm discontinuing it because the benefits of MatteMax, aside from sheen, is increased durability in the whole nine yards.
So, you know, it's such a, I mean, it takes the entire product to an entirely new and better level across the board.
So it just makes sense to get to move past the old technology that settled out and caked at the bottom.
But that's a responsible manufacturer, or even responsible distributor.
Don't distribute things that you don't, that doesn't work very well, in my opinion.
Well, I mean, that's the only downside to social media, really, is you don't know who knows and who doesn't know.
And you don't know who truly has the experience they claim to have, because they can claim it.
Like I said, there's this one guy that has made tons of videos on YouTube that always goes on and on about, back when I had my factory and I made GFRC.
Dude, I was at a trade show where I was exhibiting GFRC workshops and Hiram Ball was in the booth next to me, Ball Consulting, and this individual, who now makes these videos, walked over to me and said, what's GFRC?
And I explained it to him.
And I said, this guy right here, Hiram Ball, was one of the original people on the team that invented this back in the late 70s.
He walks over and talks to Hiram, and Hiram explains it to him, right?
Well, shortly thereafter, this person, their business went under, they closed business, and they ended up partnering with somebody and starting this material vendors company, right?
But I know for a fact, that's not what they used to do.
They never did it.
I was there, and he was like, what's GFRC?
And now you see hundreds of videos.
Now the way I used to do it, that's like, oh my God, the way I used to do it.
That just, it's like nails on the chart board.
That becomes simple, right?
I mean, you know, because I will say that that individual has moved on to other things, and you know, maybe he did, you know, let's say embellish a little bit to begin with.
You know, over the years, you know, he's definitely got a lot of, a little, just, I would say, but you know, more in the lab kind of things.
Yeah.
Type of stuff, yeah.
Well, that's all right.
I still see them-
Yes and no.
Yes and no, Jon.
Yes and no.
No, I'm gonna disagree with you on this.
Yes and no.
And let me tell you why I'm gonna disagree.
Because that same mindset, there's other individuals who don't do this for a living, who don't make things for anybody, don't make countertops, sinks, furniture, nothing.
They don't make anything for any paying client, but they're gonna sit in their shop, they're gonna cast 100 little squares that are two by two, they're gonna paint sealer on it, they're gonna do their test on a little two by two in their shop, and they're gonna use that as their basis for this works.
That's zero real world experience.
You have no idea how that's gonna perform in an actual...
Yeah, I agree.
That's rough.
And so you can say, well, I went to my laboratory and I made these samples and I tested everything.
Yeah, bro.
Now put it in a restaurant and see how it does.
You know?
And have a customer pay you money for it.
And then have that thing fail and have that customer call you back.
Yeah, you're responsible for it or call back.
Yeah, I mean, it changes the game dramatically.
It really does.
Big time.
And even if you had a solution that wasn't the best solution in the world, working with somebody who has experience with that solution, that they've been able to, you know, let's say, work around.
And now you at least have some experienced information to draw from.
Yeah.
And that makes, that's dramatic changes.
Put your children's livelihood, their life on the line, brother.
Brother.
Put, like, that's what I do.
When I use a product and I ship it to a customer, you know, buying the sink and buying the other sink and, you know, all this kind of stuff, that's my, that's my reputation.
That's my livelihood.
I have to believe in it 100%.
If I was just selling mix to artisans, there's no skin in the game, you know?
So that's what I'm saying is, we do this for a living.
What we do is critical to our success or our failure.
And so if I talk to one of our customers of Spying Kodiak Pro and I give them advice, it comes from a place of actual real world experience doing exactly what they're doing.
Being in the same situation they're in, having the same pressures and stresses.
And, you know, when EAP was failing across the board, everybody's businesses were going under.
I had hundreds of pieces out in the field, sealed with that sealer, and I felt like the whole world was collapsing on me.
Oh, yeah.
The amount of stress.
Yeah, waiting for the tsunami to hit.
Yeah.
And the person that was selling the EAP didn't have any of that stress.
They didn't know what I felt like.
They didn't know how that was going to affect my entire trajectory of my life.
That's the difference.
That's the difference.
And when you get advice from a materials company, if they do it for a living, all the better, because the advice they're going to give you is the advice that you need, because they're in your shoes.
They know exactly what you're going through.
And we're the only company doing that.
Nobody else is doing that.
So anyways, I started this podcast, worked up.
I'm getting worked up again.
Don't get worked up.
We should end up on a high note.
We should get out while the getting's good, Jon.
So, all right, let's wrap it up.
Until next week, adios.
Adios, amigo.
Adios, brother.