Concrete Questions Answered: Mastering Materials, Mixes, and Methods

This week on The Concrete Podcast, we’re walking through the challenges and victories that shape your creative journey. Whether you’re wrangling foam coring, debating the best buckets for casting, or searching for how to make a perfect black concrete mix, we’ve got answers. Tackling everything from countertop mix insights to practical tips, this episode is packed with actionable advice to help you work smarter, not harder.

Join us as we simplify the complex, save you time, and set you up for success in your concrete creations. Your questions deserve clarity—let’s get to it.

#ConcreteCrafting #CreativeSolutions #MakerJourney #ConcreteDesign #ProblemSolvingTips #ArtisanLife #BuildingWithPurpose #SelfDevelopment #LearnAndCreate

TRANSCRIPT

Hello, Jon Schuler.

Hello, Brandon Gore.

Dude, it was like a scene from Cops last night at my shop.

I got, yeah, I got a multi-layered security system with motion sensors around my building.

And last night, like around 6 o'clock, I start getting all these texts for my security system.

And, you know, we live in a digital age, so on my Apple Watch, I'm getting photos of something and some guy walking around my building.

So I hop on the cameras, I'm watching this dude peeking in my windows.

So I call 911, give him a description.

And literally as I'm watching, less than a minute later, three cop cars come flying.

The guys are walking down the road.

Three cop cars come flying down the road.

Less than a minute.

God bless small town America.

This town, Goddard, Kansas, is like a little farm town.

The cops have nothing to do.

Literally nothing to do.

They're just itching.

Somebody please call 911.

Somebody, please.

And yeah, so they responded like that.

When I lived in Phoenix, if you called the cops, you're lucky if they show up in an hour.

Seriously.

The next day.

So what happened?

What happened yesterday?

I had numerous, numerous, when I was younger and I used to manage a hotel, we'd have all kinds of crazy incidents with like, homeless people that were mentally unstable, trying to fight people in the parking lot, whatever.

And you'd call the police.

An hour later, they might show up, might show up.

But here in Goddard, less than 60 seconds, three cop cars responded.

And so they found the guy, claimed to be a truck driver, claimed he was looking for a water spigot to fill up some water.

But it didn't really make sense to the cops either because he was walking around looking in buildings.

And he admitted that.

He's like, yeah, you know, I was looking for a spigot, but why are you looking in the windows?

Why are you creeping?

Right?

Because he was wondering what you were wearing while he was looking for a spigot.

I think, you know, I think he was somebody that probably thought that this was a deserted area at night.

And maybe he's looking for something to put in his truck before he left.

But anyways, he got noticed.

I think that's the most important thing.

Once somebody's noticed, once you take note that they're there, the chances of them doing anything are pretty much zero.

So anyways, but dude, so a couple of things, it's been, I don't know, a week and a half, two weeks since we've done a podcast, but what a week and a half ago, your daughter was in an incredibly serious accident.

Yes, yeah, head-on collision, yep.

Not just a head-on collision, head-on collision on a mountain and rolled down the side of the mountain, rolling the vehicle, how many times?

I don't even know.

Yeah, 300 and somewhere between 300, they say 350 to 400 yards down a steep ravine.

Yeah, so I live at the edge of the Sierras, and we have, I think, the third largest lake, man-made lake, and this lake is right, big part of it's in a canyon, basically.

So yeah, she ended up rolling down the side of the canyon.

But I'm telling you, man, the Subaru Crosstreks.

I know there's lots of jokes out there about who owns Subaru Crosstreks, and et cetera, et cetera.

I don't know why those, or where the jokes originated, but I'm gonna tell you what, those vehicles are ridiculously safe.

And if anybody's interested, you're more than welcome to go to my timeline, Jon Schuler on Facebook, and read the story about what happened, and there's photos of the vehicle, and it's literally, I don't know, shocking to me anyway, and at least to all first responders on scene, that my daughter walked out of this thing.

Yeah.

Just like in her stocking feet kind of thing.

It was pretty crazy, the events we went through.

And then, now after the shock and awe of all of that, and the feel good of like, hey, all minor injuries for everybody, the aftermath of insurance companies and paperwork, and it's just, that part's been nuts.

Just nuts.

I don't understand it.

What do we pay for insurance company?

Well, yeah, exactly.

My insurance company, I told you my commercial insurance, they sent me three pages of reductions in coverage, but they didn't reduce my bill one penny.

They reduced the coverage three pages worth of reductions, but they didn't reduce it all.

And then they changed the terms for like payout for the roof, which is probably the most claim you have on a commercial building, would be the roof damage if there's a big storm or wind or whatever.

And they reduced that to cash value, which I was explaining to you, essentially on a building as old as this, they'll claim has a zero cash value.

So if a tornado ever hits and the roof gets ripped off, they'll be like, well, there's no cash value, so we're not going to pay you anything, even though I pay like a thousand bucks a month for insurance, you know.

How crazy is that?

Yeah, it's bananas.

It is bananas.

These companies, they're the mafia, and they're hoping what they're doing to you right now with all these hoops you have to jump through, is if you miss one, they'll deny your claim.

Oh, you didn't turn in the keys.

For what?

The car is totaled.

Yeah, but if you want to have the keys, we're not going to give you a payout.

Yeah, no, I did already get that one.

I know, but I'm saying that's what they're hoping.

You need to take the fobs.

And I started laughing, and I'm like, what are you talking about?

I started juggling.

I'm like, you think you're driving it?

You're driving away?

Oh, no, no, no, we have to have those.

Or, you know, I can't process the claim.

What the hell are you going to do with these fobs now?

You'll stick them up his butt.

That's what he's going to do.

That's ridiculous, man.

Just ridiculous.

But the thing is, right?

Yeah, we got them at home.

And now you got to take, you know, whatever amount of time to take it over to the the tow yard, which is not around the corner.

I mean, it's an hour plus away.

It's ridiculous.

So the whole post, all this, dealing with all the hocus pocus has been absolutely ridiculous.

But thank goodness everybody came out, including the other driver, with very minor injuries.

So that was awesome.

That is awesome.

It is awesome.

So I did the Ram Crete Workshop this weekend, Jon, this last weekend, Saturday, Sunday.

Yeah, right on.

And it went well.

Did you post anything?

I haven't seen anything.

Yeah, I posted on Facebook today, but you've been out all day, so you didn't see it.

But yeah.

Yeah, right on.

So I posted, I've been, dude, I don't know if I'm just getting old or what, but it's taken me literally three days just to recover from teaching a two-day class.

You know, it wears you out.

I was telling you, like, how...

It wears you out, yeah.

Oh my God.

You know, the benefit of doing a hero's quest or a pinnacle is there's multiple instructors.

And so you can be on for an hour or two, and then you can pass the baton to somebody else, and they can take over.

Hey, we're going to talk about this.

And you can like take a break and let your brain relax.

But when you're teaching solo, which is what I did, holy crap, you're just like spun up for 10 hours straight.

And it's just mentally draining.

Like it's not physically, like it's a normal day physically, but it's just mentally a very taxing thing to do.

So this might be my last solo class.

I think from here on out, any workshop I do is going to be in conjunction.

I'm serious, dude, in conjunction with you or Joe or Dusty.

Yeah.

But what the hell's going on over there?

Actually, believe it or not, so I'm at home.

That's the, it's not even that old.

That's the refrigerator going.

That sounds like a vibrator to me.

Well, I'm not gonna tell you.

I think I do.

Turn it off, Jon.

Turn off your vibrator.

Good thing this isn't a video feed that we got going.

You ever see the one where the guy got busted in the video feed, the company Skype Call?

No, I didn't see that.

It wasn't even, no, it was like a CNN interview.

It wasn't even a company Skype Call.

I don't know.

It was one of the, and they were like, everybody, the rest of the people, somebody call him.

Your camera, you can call him.

Call him.

Oh my God.

Yeah, that's funny.

Yeah.

So I just want people to do that on purpose, though.

No, because he lost his job after that, and he's been totally.

Now he's just a joke.

So I don't think he did it on purpose.

Oh, that's crazy, Tim.

All right.

So, yeah, I'm here.

Yeah.

You got a nice crew of people there.

I look at the photos now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it was a really good class.

And hold on, I'm addicted to these damn caffeine pouches.

Now I'm getting another one.

Told you, man.

I'm addicted.

Don't do it.

It was a really good class.

We made an art plinth.

I say an art plinth.

It's a display plinth for architectural models for a project I'm working on in Arkansas.

And I ordered green pigment.

So I called Solomon and I said, hey, what green pigments do you have?

And they had a couple and they sent them to me and I did some tests.

And anyways, I ordered it without really knowing what it cost, right?

So I ordered it and we did the piece.

And during the class, for whatever reason, that's when I actually finally calculated what it's gonna cost.

And if I use that green pigment for the project in Arkansas, it's gonna be close to $100,000 in pigment alone.

Just pigment, nothing else.

Yeah, 100 Gs, cause green pigment is over $10 a pound.

It's more than $10 a pound.

So it's gonna be over $100,000.

That's problematic, bro.

And the whole reason for this display plinth is at some point, when I meet with investors and the banks, I'm gonna bring this for the meeting, right?

And it's the material that we're building with, and it's the models, and you know, it's just representative of the quality and the level of this project.

But it needs to be the color I'm building with.

I can't be like, well, this one's green, but we're actually gonna build it brown, you know?

So, yeah, so anyways, I'm gonna redo it.

I'm rebuilding the form.

I've been working on it the last day.

I'm gonna rebuild it and order some more pigments.

Oh, you're right.

I'm looking right now.

Not including shipping, $9.30 a pound.

No, it was more than that for me.

I think it was like $10.70 a pound is what she told me for...

It depends which one you do, but the one I went with is a blend.

It's like almost $11 a pound.

So it's expensive.

And it's just untenable for me to use that color for this scale of a project.

If it was like a small thing, of course, but it's just too much.

So anyways, I'm going to redo it.

I'm going to remake this piece.

Another thing was, I made this with four inch casters.

It's supposed to be mobile.

It's supposed to be so I can push it up into a trailer, take it to a meeting, unroll it into a meeting room.

The four inch casters are just too small for something that heavy.

It's really difficult.

I can only imagine trying to get it up a ramp.

It's like they're too small.

So I just ordered six inch casters that are rated for 3,000 pounds.

So I'm going to remake it in brown, reddish brown, and I'm going to use six inch casters instead of four inch casters.

So yeah, you know, every time you make something, you learn.

And it's the first time ever making a plinth like this with casters on it.

And it was the first time I've used this green pigment for rammed earth.

I've used green pigment in concrete, but not rammed earth.

And just the volume that you need for rammed earth is just insane, insane.

So well, now that I know it was green, I remember you and I were talking.

So just so you know, the greens I still consider on the edge of super pigments, and they're going to hold moisture.

Yeah.

So that might have been one of the things you were fighting as well.

Yeah, I was trying to seal it on the last day.

I was really pushing it, really pushing it.

You should never de-mold and seal within 30 minutes.

But, you know, we cleaned it, acid etched it.

And I was just trying to force it along with a torch to get it to dry out, to seal it.

And, you know, it's just, I shouldn't do that.

You should never, it reminds me of like when Joe Bates got all manic in that one class and was jumping up and down on the table.

It's like, come on now, don't, you know better.

You know better.

I knew better.

I knew better.

I should have said, guys, the timeline doesn't work to acid etch this and clean it with simple green and do the whole thing and then seal it.

Like, we got to give it time.

You know, there's a window of time that needs to set before we apply sealer.

But that being said, I came in today, when I applied it, you know, the sealer was really holding the moisture and it was all kind of modeled in color.

But when I came in today, it's evened out dramatically.

Now it looks totally normal.

So it just took four days for it to cure out.

Well, I'll say the photos that you have, see right now, you're probably we're going to get another in or you'll get an Instagram thing.

I don't know, man.

The layers look cool to me.

No, they do look cool.

I'm not saying it doesn't look cool.

I'm saying it's not representative of the project.

And that's the whole point of it.

That's the whole point of it is, when I meet with the bankers and the investors, this is the material.

And I can't give them and say, this is the material, but not this.

They'll be like, well, huh?

Well, just use your imagination.

I don't think investors have much of an imagination.

Can't you picture this if it was a blue instead of green?

Yeah.

So long story short is, I'm just going to remake it.

Not a big deal.

Not a big deal.

And I'm going to remake it.

I might even do like a little tutorial video, a paid video, or maybe like a webinar.

I don't know.

I'm still toying with maybe doing some type of workshop or training with it.

But yeah, so anyways...

Well, I will say post...

What was it?

There was another...

Guys from Texas posted a cool table with RamCrete.

Marfa Cement Works.

Yeah.

And I think it's a cool table.

But that being said, I've literally, since that was posted, because you didn't post the workshop yet, so I can't blame it on that, I've gotten three messages from people that have...

have we released the RamCrete mix design yet.

So...

No, we haven't.

You know, it's the mix design, but it's also the application.

And there's some little things to it.

There's some nuance technique to it, which we cover in the workshop.

And that's why I might do a training video.

We have a videographer we're gearing up to work with, so I might do a training video.

Or I might do a webinar.

The problem with the webinar, Jon, is it's live.

And, you know, to mix takes a while, to place takes a while.

Oh, it all takes a while.

And if you're doing a webinar, people are just sitting there for like an hour while you're mixing, just watching on their screen.

Oh yeah.

Yep, yep.

Mixers mixing.

Right.

I think I get dancers or something in between.

Like the Jake Paul Tyson fight.

Right.

Yeah.

I got to come in in a hooptie low rider and have somebody spraying some cheap body spray in my face the whole time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Something.

But no, I know what you're saying.

Yeah, I guess I could see a live webinar would be difficult.

Yeah, it's just it's too long format for a webinar, although webinars might be interesting.

Maybe we do those in the future for things that we can do much quicker.

But for this, I'm going to reach out to the videographer and see if we can work it in to shoot a video and put together something that's very succinct and dialed.

And people can watch it in 45 minutes and get the whole process versus four hours.

Yeah, I think that'd be cool.

I think a lot of people would think that'd be cool.

Yeah.

So look out for that.

Well, let's get to this podcast.

So I was on Facebook, and I don't know what questions you have, but Alberto Crocco, down in the land down under Australia, where right now it's summertime.

It's the opposite of us.

So we're going into winter, he's going into summer.

But he asked, can foam, if you foam core piece, so you essentially sink foam down into the concrete to displace volume so it's lighter, can you leave the foam in long term, permanently?

The answer is no.

No, you can't.

Anybody that's done it, it never ends well.

On a long enough timeline, there's going to be expansion and contraction of that foam, and it's going to be different than the concrete, and ultimately it's going to cause cracks.

And that was the responses from...

Yeah, unanimously.

I think anybody, we'd all say the same.

And this is a conversation we've had over the years from a lot of different angles.

You know what, and I don't...

I call it the beaded foam, whatever that stuff is.

It's called expanded polystyrene XPS.

Yeah.

Oh, that's supposed to be better than the solid, DuPont foams, the blues or the pinks.

And I think we've all run that direction.

And I know this wasn't part of the question, but I'll put on the table, and this is what I've said from the very beginning.

If you know you're making a project, and you know you want to fill it with a lightweight material and wrap it kind of idea, and you know that's the direction you're going, then you really should set the time aside to, let's say, cast your inner foam, your inner void, your inner filler, and cast that with poly-steering beads, or pearlite, or pour it over mix, or whatever the case may be.

Reinforce that with some glass fiber.

Basically, make your own internal, and then cast it with that, and then you'll have no problems.

No problems whatsoever.

But that means, you know, dedication to getting it done beforehand.

Yeah.

Another option would be, you do your foam, your XPS, or your EPS, I keep saying XPS.

EPS, expanded poly-steering.

Your EPS beaded foam.

You do your foam, drill holes through it in a grid, so there's the top and the bottom are connected with pillars, essentially.

So drill holes in the foam, so you get connected, so it's not just two shear planes.

But also form a couple holes with PVC or whatever on the bottom of the piece that go to the foam, so after you've cured and the concrete's totally done, you can pour acetone down into there and let it run through and melt the foam.

Now, here's the thing about melting foam.

People are like, oh, it dissolves the foam.

No, it doesn't.

It just changes the form of the foam.

That's all it does.

It changes it from being this fluffy bead to like this goo.

Gooey liquid.

Gooey liquid's fine.

It's on the inside of the concrete.

Nobody's ever going to see it, but you got rid of all that volume.

So that's the one instance where I think melting foam is actually a good thing.

So you can pour some pore spouts, pour the acetone in, tilt the piece so it runs down through, it eats all that foam out, and then you can patch the underside where that hole is, patch it with some concrete, bada-bing bada-boom.

Once you hit it with the grinder, nobody even know it was there.

And that's the easy way to do it.

And you have those vertical pillars that go from top to bottom that connect them and creates a super strong piece that's really light.

Now, the only downside, Jon, is you will get ghosting.

Every place you put one of those pillars, it's gonna be a little bit different color because it's a thicker concrete, then it's thinner where it's the foam, then it's thicker where it goes all the way through.

But it's a small price to pay to reduce the weight of the piece dramatically.

So, I've done that numerous times.

Nobody's ever complained about the ghosting.

Once you ask it at you and seal it, eh, eh, you know, it's minimal.

Yeah, see, I'd still go, I'd go to either the pearlite, I would go that direction.

Just cast something.

And it doesn't have to be immensely strong.

It's no stronger than the foam.

You know, that would be something even if you followed because, hey, well, I'm using Maker Mix or whatever the case may be.

Well, let's see, this to me would be a rad mix, admixture kind of thing.

In that case, if you're using a pour-over, which I, gosh, I can't remember, I think the specific gravity of pour-over is like 0.5 or something like that.

You could actually do, instead of even a one-to-one volume, you could maintain the weight.

But you're going to add, you know, again, let's say one pound of 2.65 sand volume-wise to one pound of pour-over.

I mean, you're talking about a five-gallon bucket, you know, amount.

So it would be incredibly lightweight.

You still use fiber.

It's all reinforced, the whole nine yards.

Plump it in, cover it up, bought a beam, bought a ga-

You don't have to worry about nothing.

Simple.

Nothing.

Super simple.

Don't worry about nothing.

I don't worry about nothing.

And you don't, it doesn't, although it's lighter, it won't float as easy because you're putting, you know, similar things, the expansion contraction doesn't change.

And that's the way to do it.

Yeah.

The problem is none of us actually do it.

We know the answer.

We all know the answer.

We just don't take the time to do it.

It's a good point, Jon.

Next question.

You know, we've been gone long enough.

There's a lot of good questions on the concrete, countertop, sink, tile, furniture Facebook group.

So I'm going to mispronounce this name, so forgive me.

But Zilpaw Bat Sarah asked a question, can someone recommend a good flexible bucket to pour concrete?

And we got a couple of responses, but Serho Rojas gets them at Tractor Supply Company, which is a US supplier, and he said they're about 15 to 20 bucks.

And then Gabriel over in the UK gets gorilla buckets or rhino tubs.

So if you're looking for a flexible pour bucket, which I've never used, but I probably should, it seems to make a lot of sense.

But if you're looking for one of those, that's where you get them from.

Do you ever use those, Jon, the flexible buckets?

Same, haven't done it, no.

In fact, post that, I was going to run by my local Tractor Supply and see what they have.

But, you know, I don't know.

I don't do a ton of SCC.

So, I mean, I just did it on this vanity that I just delivered yesterday.

But yeah, with that, I did the old pour from the bottom of the bucket thing.

Yeah, which I think ultimately is going to yield the best result because there's minimal error.

If you're pouring from even a flexible bucket, you're still pouring from the top where the air is risen to, so you're pouring that in.

But yeah, it seems to be a good method for pouring SCC if you're not using the bottom of the bucket pouring method.

Let's see here.

Matic asks, is it necessary to neutralize the acid with ammonia after acid etching the concrete surface, or is it enough to wash with water?

You want to answer that?

It's funny how that question keeps coming.

Sorry before I get to the answer of this, because it's simple.

No, absolutely not.

But I think we've talked about this before, is where did this whole misconception about the necessity of neutralizing the concrete, like where did that originally come from?

The flooring industry, where they can't, where they don't have the ability to do a lot of washing with water.

So they're going to neutralize it, because it's pretty much just going to sit there.

Yeah, but even in that case, you know, the reality is, so sorry, Matt, if you're out there listening, the answer is no, it is absolutely not necessary.

And the reason for that is concrete is a high pH.

The acid that you're using for your scrubbing is a low pH.

So believe it or not, just to give you an idea of what you're looking for, when you spray the acid on, we've all seen that kind of that white, you know, whatever we're going to call it, you know, where the acid hits and that little bit of white bubbles hit, and we all know what that is.

Oh, look at that.

But beyond that, the concrete naturally neutralizes the acid anyway.

And again, just to base it on numbers, concrete, especially, you know, fresh concrete, the pH is running anywhere in say basically a 10 to 11, with neutral being right about 7, right?

So, okay, four points.

Most of your, those acids are running somewhere around 3 to 5, so it just gives you the idea.

I mean, it's essentially neutralized on contact.

And once you scrub it around, it's been neutralized.

So just rinse it well, scrub and rinse, and the reason for the scrubbing, just throw it out there even if people know, you want to remove the light whitish haze that happens with any forms of acid.

So just be aware, that gets removed.

And then take it a step further.

You actually want to, let's say, minimize any potential use of your neutralizers.

And so again, sorry, I'm putting this stuff out there, people probably know.

I've heard about the, hey, what about baking soda and water?

Well, no, that doesn't actually neutralize very, carbonates don't do very much.

So what about ammonia?

Well, first of all, just so people know, ammonia and concentration is toxic, so you want to avoid that anyway.

But the bigger problem is, is this whole neutralization process is not conducive to ceiling technologies.

So in one way or another, whether you're using ICT or the newer fusion, anything like that or a basic, maybe not a basic acrylic, but it's still, because the co-solvent technology, you're still going to lose something.

Some amount of efficacy with the sealers that you end up choosing, even if it's a 2K-based polyurethane, you're going to lose or compromise some amount of that sealers technology.

So just avoid it.

Avoid it altogether.

Acid etch it, wash it, scrub it with the Scotch-Brite, wash it again, and you're good.

You're totally fine.

Yep.

Yep.

Squeegee, dry it off, you know?

And if you have to seal right there, run a torch, you know, blow some of that moisture out.

Give it a couple of hours.

Yeah, or give it some time.

Yeah, that's the number one time.

Ryan Young asked, he's wanting to make white concrete countertops.

He bought white concrete mix from Menards, and he also bought white pigment.

Yeah, he also bought white pigment put into it.

He used one pound of pigment to one bag of mix, and these mixes are 50 pounds.

When they poured a sample, it looked great, but then when he polished it, he exposed all the sands and aggregates in it, and it changed the color.

So he's asking, you know, what can I do?

Number one...

Hold on, Jon, before you jump in.

I hear you gearing up here.

Number one, Menards, man...

I'm just going to say, like, I'm not trying to poo-poo Menards.

I like Menards.

But Menards doesn't make concrete countertops for a living, so they're making some bagged mix, they're marketing it to concrete countertops.

It's not.

There's no experts in Menards that make concrete countertops.

So I wouldn't buy that mix.

I can hear you saying, well, that's readily available.

I'm local.

I can pick it up.

But what's the cost of doing it twice?

You know, now you're going to redo it.

What cost savings were there in doing that?

That's the point we try to make with people is, you know, you step over dollars, pick up dimes.

You're trying to save money by using a cheap, readily available mix, but you're going to do it multiple times.

So there was no savings in that.

The second thing is if you're going for a truly white, I wouldn't water polish it.

I'd acid etch it, which is what we recommend, but you need a dense mix.

So when you acid etch it, you're not just removing that top layer and exposing all the sand.

So you want to use something like a UHPC in this instance.

And the second thing is if you want a truly white mix, like, oh my God, it burns my eyes.

I can't look at it.

Then use rad mix and use a white sand or a clear sand, a glass sand.

So when you do acidate it or if you do water polish it, you're not exposing any color, so it's just white.

So that's my advice.

What's your advice, Jon?

Well, it's funny.

Well, I saw that one come.

The first thing, I'll be honest with you, I had to avoid it because it like PTSD-ed me with sandmageddon.

No, so there's no time.

Anytime you're going to remove the cream, I don't care what color.

In this case, obviously we're talking about white, but it could have been just as easily a black, and you would have seen the orange specks show up or whatever.

The sands, the sands that are used in these mixes are always going...

I mean, I realize he notices this now.

The moment you remove that deep enough, you're creating the terrazzo look by exposing whatever the filler was.

And in this case, salt and pepper sand.

You know, that's also in this case, what allows that particular product to be fairly inexpensive is they're using a very inexpensive sand, comparatively speaking.

The mixes that are engineered and put together for what the rest of us are trying to create, you end up spaying upwards of 500 to 1,000% more for the good, clear silica sands, not just based on color, but shape and the whole nine.

So, per what you're saying, if you're trying to achieve something, don't step over dollars to save dimes.

Literally order the product that's engineered for this kind of use and avoid the pitfalls here.

And that's it.

The sands are not being designed.

The internal filler, and that's really what your sands are, weren't designed for you to put, regardless what clear color we're talking about, whether you're trying to do a beige cream color or in this case, a white, or hey, I wanted to do a black countertop.

You know, none of that was designed with that particular product.

It's just not going to happen.

If you do a brown, when you expose it, it's not going to really...

No, you'd end up with all the black specs showing up.

It just is what it is.

Yeah, so the number one, my suggestion was look to a mix, pre-blended or otherwise, if you're going with a lighter color, pre-blended with what I would call clearer sands.

And that makes that particular product more expensive because it is more expensive in the development and the raw materials.

And then we've talked about this a lot.

And then if you're going to move into darkers, well, you know, there's no dark silica sands, meaning as a fully pre-blended product.

So this would be the admixture route like RadMix or otherwise.

Use a darker gray cement and then use some kind of filler that's as dark, if not black.

Yeah, like black beauty.

Like black beauty, yeah.

Which you can get a lot of times at sand and cement suppliers or masonry supply.

They'll have black beauty for sandblasting.

I've used that a lot for black pieces.

So it works great.

Yeah, when I ask that shit, it's just.

Well, I mean, so I'm just going to squash this one.

I can already hear, although nobody hit me yet.

Well, Jon, what about the white sands like dolomite?

Well, the reason I recommend the clearer sands as opposed to the dolomites is anybody who's ever picked up the dolomites, which by the way, are beautiful sands.

They're going to be crushed.

They're going to be angular.

They're a little more hard to work with.

It is what it is.

But actually, the dolomite sands are not all white.

No, there are specs of black and brown and yeah.

So you are going to run the risk of getting the brown and black specs in there.

Yeah, which is what it is.

When I was in Phoenix and I was making my own mix, I used to get dolomite sand to make my white mix.

And it was wider than using silica sand, like the gold silica sand that is rarely available there.

It was wider, but yeah, there is still salt and pepper specs all throughout the piece.

It's just, it is what it is.

It's a natural material.

Yeah, you got to accept it.

But if you want truly white, then yeah, you use a clear sand, a glass sand or something like that, so the color doesn't shift it.

Yeah, and if you look at it, I mean, those ones done with like legitimately recycled glasses, even that, you are going to run a risk, man, because most of those comes off a recycled product, which is typically crushed windshields and these kind of things.

So it's going to have a slightly bluish tint to it.

It just, again, nature of what it is.

The cool thing about that, though, is the blue against the titanium, actually because of our eyes, you see that as a brighter white.

So that's the advantage in that particular situation.

Cool, Jonny Blout, or Jonny Blout, I don't know, I'm horrible at pronunciation, asked, is it possible to make a sink without making some sort of rubber foam knockout for the basin?

Could I use melamine or MDF coated with conversion varnish?

Any advice on the easiest way to make a square sink knockout for like a farmhouse sink?

And I think she nailed it, or he nailed it, I don't know.

Jonny could go either way, or Jonny, I don't know.

But MDF coated in conversion varnish, or coated in epoxy resin, or coated in polyester resin, any of those are going to be a pretty simple way to build a form.

Yeah.

You just need to be aware that you have to have your drafts.

So essentially the verticals around the, what's going up and down around the perimeter need to be angled in slightly, three to five degrees minimum.

So between three and five is the minimum I do.

The more the better.

So your mold will come out without fighting.

And you just need to bondo and sand any weird transitions, make sure everything's nice and smooth.

And then once you get it perfect, then coat it in conversion varnish, epoxy resin or polyester resin.

And then you might have to do some post-processing sanding to get that smooth.

And then once you're done with that, apply several coats of carnauba wax, apply aqua-con release or some type of release, whatever your release of choice is, to help it want to release.

What are your thoughts?

Yeah, I just got in that conversion varnish.

I haven't used it yet.

I didn't get it in in time to do with this project, this vanity I just did, Fabric Formed.

So now you're going to say, now I'm asking the question.

So that's a step that I didn't actually hear from us when we were talking about the conversion varnish.

Are you guys still using a release with a conversion varnish?

Are you casting right against the conversion varnish?

Well, so Gabriel said you don't need to use a release.

You can just cast directly.

But this kind of goes back to the Hiram Ball saying you don't need to cure concrete with polymer.

It's still a good idea to do it, right?

Yeah.

Okay.

So it's like a weird thing to skip.

You're not really saving that much time.

So when we did this art plinth in the workshop, I used conversion varnish to build some of the form because it's made of plywood.

I used conversion varnish.

I rolled it.

I didn't spray it, so it wasn't super slick smooth.

It had a little bit of texture to it.

And I had to fight to get it to release.

We got it to release, but I had to fight it.

I had to drive shims and use these little airbags and pump them up and drive shims and shoot air in here and pump the airbags up.

And finally, it released.

But the lesson was, I'm a dummy.

I should have just put a couple coats of wax.

Yeah.

Exactly.

It's not going to hurt anything.

And it's just going to make it want to come off a lot easier.

So I would still do it.

But you're not saving anything.

The five minutes it would have taken me to put release on would have offset the 30 minutes it took me to get the mold off because it was bonded.

So that's the thing.

The other thing is, I like the conversion varnish.

Don't get me wrong.

And we're talking about Sherwood Water White, available from Sherwin-Williams.

And you can go into your store.

If it's a smaller store, they're probably going to have to order.

It'll take a week or two to come in.

It's a catalyzed varnish.

You add a catalyst to it, and it hardens it.

But here's what I'd say.

I've used it on a few projects now.

I've sprayed it.

I've rolled it on this last one.

It's cool.

I like it.

But I'm remaking this form.

And so I still have the plywood form that had the conversion varnish on it.

I sanded that off.

And then yesterday, I just brushed on epoxy resin.

So I have System 3 epoxy resin.

So I mix that up and brush it on.

I don't want to tell you.

I think it put a better finish on it.

It was easier.

It was lower odor.

I'm not anti-conversion varnish.

I think a lot of people are having great success with it.

I'm just saying.

Some of the old school things, you know, Michael Karmody has always been a fan of System 3 epoxy resin.

He's made really cool forms that way.

It's equally as good.

So and you might be able to find it locally.

If you go to a marine supply store, they'll carry West Systems epoxy on the shelf.

And, you know, I lived in Phoenix.

I mean, we're nowhere near a lake or an ocean, but there was plenty of marine supplies.

You could just walk in and buy it off the shelf.

So same thing.

System 3 is just a little bit thicker.

The West Systems is a little bit thinner.

But I think that's another viable option.

That's probably what I would do over the conversion varnish, would be I do either polyester or epoxy resin.

Yeah.

But I'm reading some of the comments.

Brent Idenbach was saying that PVC siding sheets from Lowe's and then heat hot glue together fill cracks and marks of Bondo and sand is regular.

You'd still want to cover the Bondo with something.

If you cast directly against Bondo, it's going to discolor the concrete.

A lot of times bond to it.

So that's one.

A lot of people chimed in that they're using PVC foam.

So that's another option.

And they make a glue for PVC, PVC cement.

They sell it in a plumbing section that will bond, chemically bond PVC and kind of melt it together.

That might be a better way to use some of that PVC cement and just kind of melt them and then sand it.

I've seen they just do the spray foam, just the can of spray foam.

Well, but that's porous.

Whereas if you do the PVC glues, let's say you miter all your corners.

You take the time, you miter the PVC glue, stick it, let it ooze out, then you sand it with 220, 300, whatever, and then you wax the crap out of it, you release it, yeah, you probably get a pretty good result.

I would still go with MDF and Bondo and then resin.

That's just me.

But I've done it enough times that I know it's gonna work.

I know I'm not gonna run into issues.

So that's why I do that.

But again, thinking back to Karmody, I know Karmody's used plexiglass or polycarbonate, and then the solvent glue for polycarbonate that melts it together.

And he's made really nice forms with polycarbonate.

And then just melted the edges and polished it out, and it's like glass.

But it's kind of high level.

It's very high level.

It's not something I would recommend to somebody who's trying it for the first time.

Agreed.

Yeah.

So there's that question.

Let's see here.

Let me scroll up.

What's the next question on here, Jon?

Well, this was an, I don't remember which form it was on, and it was a little while ago.

And I think it was somebody new.

They were asking, could he do a right side up cast?

I mean, really?

And it's going to sound silly.

Anybody who has the experience with this, just bear with it.

It's how we all learn.

Right side up cast, and then lay a piece of board, like a melamine or what, you know, something on top.

And is that, would that give you the finish of a pre-cast?

In other words, he didn't actually want to pre-cast that he needed to do it in place.

So that one too, just straight off, is going to be no.

Well, if we, anybody who's ever tried to do this, and you don't have to, you know, realize that the moment you set that board on top, even if you vibrate it, you're going to have a massive amount of voids.

Yeah, it was trapped.

Yeah, you're trapping no matter what.

So you will not get a smooth finish.

That's definitely not the way to do it.

If you're going to do upright cast, take the time, learn some skills with hand tools and trowels and so forth and so on, and you'll get beautiful finishes.

Yeah.

Have you seen that video going around?

It was at least a month or two ago of somebody doing a trout on overlay on a wall and then taking thin plastic and laying it up on the overlay.

And you can see the air.

So they're kind of pushing the air out with a squeegee or whatever, pushing it up, kind of rolling the plastic on, letting it cure and then peeling it off.

And it looks like it was cast in place, concrete walls.

Right.

I wonder if you could use that really thin plastic and if you just slowly, you know, kind of laid it down as you're squeegeeing the air out, maybe you could see the air and get the majority of it out.

Let it cure that way, pull it off.

But you're not going to end up with a dead smooth surface.

It's going to be undulating, it's going to be wavy.

Correct.

Yeah, so you're better off to screed it, trowel it, and then, you know, the next day come in with sanders and diamond pads and just give it a good once over.

Yeah.

See, that's one of those situations, and this is digressing or moving around, whatever.

We've talked about things like microcements.

See, so that's a situation where I think, you know, microcements on walls and stuff, man, they make some really cool finishes.

And that would be one of them right there.

Yeah, you had, you know, whatever.

Well, you want to have an architectural look inside the house kind of thing, but obviously you live in a stick-built home.

That would be a really cool way of achieving it.

Yeah, well, you've been to Crystal Bridges in Northwest Arkansas, the museum.

Come on, that's insane.

It is insane.

And so much of the concrete, so it's all exposed concrete on the inside, but so much of it, they did a troweled microcement overlay over, you can see it when you get up on it.

So they did, you know, site cast concrete, but it came out with more imperfections than the architect wanted.

And so they troweled on a microcement overlay over it.

And man, it looks really good, really good.

And yeah, you could have done it out of plywood.

It wouldn't have the same resonance when you tap on them.

Those things are, you know, four foot thick solid concrete, these big columns and stuff.

But you'd have the same look from two feet away if you didn't tap on it.

Yeah, if anybody's been on this tile one, man, it's surprising the way the algorithms work with Facebook and so forth.

But because I like that look, again, like the architectural of crystal bridges, I get so many things on my timeline now that are concrete wall homes and all that kind of stuff.

So I share quite a bit on that concrete countertops tile page.

I love that stuff, man.

It's just gorgeous.

I mainly get girls twerking online, but I guess we're liking different videos.

I don't know.

Are those California girls?

Because they may.

I don't know.

Tick-tock, dude.

Tick-tock figures it out pretty quick.

My wife comes over and sits down, like, look at this.

Look at this nice lady making a sandwich.

But yeah.

That's funny.

No, Erin would be like, I don't know what she's doing.

Well, she's making a sandwich in a bikini, but look at her.

She's making a sandwich, Erin, look.

Look at this.

That's what I see, is the sandwich.

That right there, that makes me happy.

She's making a sandwich.

Yeah.

It's funny.

So the, let me see, the next question, and really the last question on this page is, Todd Visser, advice needed, my first concrete countertop, all ZForm products, which ZForm, that's a funny one, dude.

I mean, whatever, I don't want everything to get ZForm, but it's amazing to me how many people somehow get sucked into the ZForm system, which is really kind of a DIY product line, and not really, I don't know any pros that use ZForm, zero.

It's kind of a DIY thing.

All ZForm products, he sanded to 200 grit, but the stain didn't take.

His working conditions are 54 degrees.

Is it too cold, too smooth?

What did I do wrong?

And he posted a photo, and it's a gray countertop with black stain applied, but it's really splotchy all over the surface.

What would you recommend to somebody that was trying to get an even stain?

Well, it needs to be mixed into the sealer.

That's the only way it's going to work.

I mean, like, legitimately.

But without knowing ZForm's products or what stain he's using, maybe that's a ZForm product as well.

I don't know.

I have a, you know, in the history of us doing all kinds of varieties of stains from stuff that would be considered penetrating, stuff that, let's say, realistically is some version of a paint, none of those work done the way often the manufacturer recommended.

Like, you know, apply this like a faux and then seal over it, and then X amount of time later, it's all scratching off.

So no, my recommendation is, number one, if you were looking for black, not to be a jerk, man, but I hope you've learned, start with black, start with a black background, or, you know, at least charcoal it as deep as you can, assuming you're working with a white concrete.

Try to get enough black in there and at least start with a charcoal background.

Pigment, when you're mixing it, add pigment to the mix.

Yeah, in the concrete.

I apologize, that's what I meant, in the concrete.

You know, don't start with a white background.

Because then the only choice you're gonna have is to somehow paint this thing with black.

And there's no longevity to the zero.

And anybody, I'm just, and I'm willing to be educated on this, so by all means, somebody give me a call, hit me with a messenger if you know a product that exists, other than maybe, well, coat it with a black epoxy.

Okay, well, that'll be black, but doesn't last very well, it's scratch and Mars.

So what I'm saying is, I cannot think of a single product other than paint, or like I just said, a black epoxy, that's gonna take your white concrete and turn it black, and just realize when you make that choice, there is not gonna be the longevity and wear of the counter side surface that I'm guessing you're trying to expect out of this, you know, it's any sealer that you end up putting over this, acrylic, urethane, whatever the case may be, it's technically bonding to the paint color that you put and not to the concrete.

So it's eventually gonna wear off, peel off, scratch off, something along that nature.

So yeah, that's just a no-go from the get-go.

But you mix that black pigment or plaque dye, whatever we're talking about, with the sealer as you apply it, you're gonna add a translucent kind of black to it, just realize it's not gonna act as a paint.

That's all.

Yeah.

Well, where he's at now, I'd say he's trying to salvage it.

And looking at the photos, it looks like the surface is repelling the stain that he's applying.

So my advice would be first, profile that surface, take diamond pads on a...

Yeah, a good acid edge of some sort.

Hold on Jon, I'm good to it.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I interrupted.

All right.

Let me try this again.

All right.

So diamond pads, we sell Festool pads that you can use dry on a Festool sander and dust extractor, so you can do it in your house, not make a big mess, not have a lot of water going everywhere.

But I take diamond pads and profile that surface, take off everything and get down to raw concrete, clean it up.

At that point, I would probably do a very diluted muratic acid wash and then clean it, just to open it up even further.

And then at that point, if you're using a water-based stain, maybe do a couple coats just to get it in there, and then pigment your sealer and start applying the sealer.

And you might be able to get it to be relatively dark.

It's not going to be black.

And like Jon said, it won't have longevity.

At some point, somebody is going to scratch through that surface and expose the lighter substrate.

So yeah, I mean, hindsight is 20-20.

Live and learn is tuition.

This is how you learn.

Next time, put a black pigment in your concrete.

We sell a pigment through Kodiak called Jet.

Jet's actually blended three different black types.

But Solomon sells an oxide, they sell a carbon, you know, Brickform, Davis, they all have a charcoal or a black, and you'd be better off even using one of those pigments than not using anything.

So, right.

You gotta get that background color somehow darkened up.

I mean, that's just is what it is if you're trying to create a black, or even a charcoal.

I mean, you have to start off with doing it...

We've seen it too many times.

If anybody looks around, I'm thinking like even some cool projects like Steve Millard's done over the years.

Dusty Baker.

I mean, we've all seen him.

And they've done stuff that the background color was a white concrete or whatever.

And then they faux...

Let's just call it faux painting or faux staining.

It looked brilliant for a period of time.

And then, you know, it doesn't matter how long, you know, two days or two years.

Those surfaces and any real use, that all just comes off.

Just comes off.

And it's incredibly difficult to repair and kind of, you know, faux color this thing again and bring it back.

So it just...

Anybody's done this long enough.

We all know now.

It just doesn't work.

It's not practical.

It's just not the way to go.

Yeah.

I'm thinking of Dusty's house.

We taught the first DustyCrete class.

I don't know how many years ago now.

Ten years ago, maybe.

Maybe even longer.

I wouldn't say it's around ten years ago.

2015, 14, somewhere in there, maybe 14.

But we taught a class at Dusty's house, and he brought everybody into his kitchen.

And he had a farmhouse sink, dark brown DustyCrete farmhouse sink, and the bottom of the sink was white because all the stain had worn off from the pots and pans and everything going in there.

And he occasionally would go in and restain it and apply more sealer, and it would look great for an amount of time.

But just the constant abrasion of the pots and pans and orange juice and tomato juice and whatever.

Just normal use, yeah.

Yeah.

Would take that top layer off and expose the white.

Because back then, what Dusty was doing was just a white mix and then staining on top of it.

He wasn't pigmenting.

But that was early on in Dusty's trajectory with DustyCrete.

Now he's the opposite.

Now he pigments it.

And if he uses any stain at all, it's super minimal.

It's only to highlight the texture.

It's not to change the color of the concrete.

So he no longer paints on a heavy coat to change the color.

Now he just does it for highlighting.

So in that case, it's way more durable now, because if somebody abrades off that top layer, it's still the same color.

You're not going to see a dramatic difference.

So, yeah.

Yeah, I can see a project my brother did, actually, for my sister in a...

My sister owns a daycare.

So Darren thought in this...

It's called Little Shoes.

Schuler, and when she was growing up, she was referred to as Little Shoe, because she was the younger sister of the two brothers in the schools.

So that's what she named her business.

So my brother came up with this brilliant idea, and it really was, it was super cool.

So he did these faux footsteps on the white vanity.

And sealed it up.

And man, those foot, those, so that, you know, he just used the stain, just as we're talking about.

And it looked super cool for a minute until they all, yeah, they just all abraded off.

Yeah.

And then it looked like little demon feet everywhere.

They're all, the shape, right?

Yeah.

No, the footsteps in the sand did not, did not last at all.

So yeah, so anybody out there, if you're ever thinking about that, and to me, I'm sorry, whether you're whatever staining product we're talking about, whatever brand from Bayer, Ameri Polish, anything we can think of under these circumstances, that whole idea is just not practical at all.

So do your best to start with a concrete color that somehow enhances the direction you're going.

So and then beyond that, any staining that's used, use it in a certain percentage.

I'm personally going to say no recommendation higher than 10%.

Like 90% sealer, 10% stain, and really 5% is the zone you want to be in.

And you use that stain as a color enhancer from start to finish as you seal the piece.

Yeah.

Which I've done for black.

So we've added some black stain to ICT just to make it blacker and blacker with every coat.

But we started off with black concrete.

So it's just making it blacker than it was.

Yeah.

But yeah, no.

Good points, Jon.

All right.

Well, let's wrap it up.

I don't have any workshops to announce.

We need to get Joe Bates on here.

You know, we had him scheduled like two months ago.

And he had some, you know, big construction project that was unanticipated at his house.

And then he got sick.

He got like the flu or something.

I don't know.

But I swear, man, we missed him by like a day, and now months have gone by.

So we need to get him on here.

And then we can discuss the next Heroes Quest, which we're shooting for the spring, and have that in Napa, California.

So hopefully in a week or two, once we get Joe locked down, we can announce the next workshop and get that going.

And then, like I said, I'm going to try to do something with the Ramcrete here and do something, whether a webinar or a video tutorial, and get that out there.

So, but that's all I got.

All right, Jon, let's wrap it up.

All right, buddy.

Adios, amigo.

Adios.