Inside GFRC: The Fibers Serious Makers Trust for Beauty and Strength

"We unpack the heart of GFRC—what it is, which fibers are best, and why it’s become the go-to for serious makers who care about both beauty and strength."

What if the material you choose could shape more than just your next concrete piece—but your entire outlook on the craft? In this episode of The Concrete Podcast, Joe Bates returns fresh off his trip to Japan, bringing with him a lens of precision, patience, and possibility. We unpack the heart of GFRC—what it is, which fibers are best, and why it’s become the go-to for serious makers who care about both beauty and strength.

BG shares a personal story about falling out of love with Festool and how that moment clarified something bigger: how tools—and the way we use them—reflect what we value. From the changing tides of the concrete industry to a surprising old product that gives Bondo a run for its money, this episode is a conversation about doing better work, with more intention.

Whether you’re a seasoned fabricator or just starting out, this one’s about choosing materials, methods, and mindsets that actually move the needle. Let’s Make Concrete Healthy Again.

M.C.H.A.

#StoryDrivenSuccess #ConcreteCraftsmanship #MakerMindset #EntrepreneurJourney #DesignBetterBuildBetter #CreativeBusinessTips #SelfDevelopmentPodcast #GFRCExplained #BuildingWithPurpose #PodcastForMakers

TRANSCRIPT

Hello, Jon Schuler.

Hello, Brandon Gore.

We're gonna have Joe Bates on today, on The Concrete Podcast.

Well, that's awesome, he just got back from vacation.

I haven't even heard about it.

Joe Bates, SC Fabrication.

Joe's our west coast distributor for Kodiak Pro.

A lot of people in California drive over and buy it from Joe.

And he's also our small order distributor.

So people that need to buy just a few bags at a time, or get a pound of TBP or, you know, fiber, whatever, Joe's the guy to hit up.

So we've talked about it.

We should have some kits put together.

I know two or three or four kits sizes and listed on the web pages here pretty soon, which again, will end up coming from Joe.

But we have not done that before.

We've got a lot of requests for such things.

So now there's Joe's and maybe I'm stepping on it too fast.

Joe has fibers in stock now, some really cool fibers, you know, the pigments, plasticizer, I mean, you name it.

So I think we should put some real cool kits together for people for doing smaller projects.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Cool.

Well, what do you want to talk about before we get Joe or is there anything you want to talk about?

Anything?

No, man.

Nothing to talk about.

I mean, things are going well.

Hit me with something.

I'm asking you.

Well, I can always talk about something.

It seems like there's always something crazy going on.

Hey, but I want to tell you something that I found.

Hit me.

Durham's water putty, rock hard water putty.

This is something I saw some some post on TikTok or Facebook.

I don't know where I saw.

I saw some post of somebody saying that's what they're using instead of Bondo.

And I've seen this stuff.

I want to say Joe Bates maybe used it.

I don't know if I remember using is that stuff in the box, the white box, red trim, guy holding.

Yeah, but dude, I mean, I use Bondo all the time.

And I have a love hate with Bondo, but Bondo is incredibly difficult to sand.

It clogs the sandpaper.

It's gummy.

It's just a pain in the butt.

It goes off super fast.

You know, you try to back down the hardener in it, but still you're racing.

Yeah, which means it remains soft even longer.

Yeah, but you're racing the clock.

And it's just it's one of these things.

And it's fairly toxic.

At least I feel like it is.

But I've seen this stuff in the in the paint section of Lowe's and Home Depot.

Durham's Rock Hard Water Putty.

And yeah, it's like a white.

It's a can, like a like a can, like a cylinder.

But it's got this like strong man, like a 1940s logo of a strong man holding up the logo.

And it's red and gold and white.

I've seen it forever and I've never bought it.

And for a couple of reasons, one is it's 10 bucks.

And I think, man, this can't be as good as the $50 Bondo, right?

Can't be useful.

Yeah, it's 10 bucks.

Yeah.

So I just kind of stick with what I'm used to.

But I saw this post, I'm like, oh, whatever, I'll buy it.

And so I bought it and I've been using it the last week or so.

I'm telling you, man, I love this stuff.

It is so much easier to apply.

It takes a lot longer to set, which for me is not a big deal because I don't need it to set in five minutes.

You know, so I give it 30 minutes to an hour between between applications.

But it sands so much easier when you smell it.

It smells like vanilla protein powders.

What it smells like.

It smells like vanilla.

I just feel like it's a much better option for what we do, you know, in this and what we do with mold making and whatnot.

And so anyways, give it a shot.

If you have been watching the camera feed of my shop, I had it on yesterday.

I'm going to turn it on again today when I go back there.

But yesterday I was using it.

I was working on a mold and I was using the Durham's water putty to help build this mold I'm working on.

So while you were talking, I just went in and Googled it.

I didn't realize, man, look how many YouTube videos using this material from everything to fixing rotted wood to you name it.

So it's a cool find.

Yeah, I'm going to use it.

Yeah, 10 bucks.

I mean, like I said, I've seen it in my local Ace Hardware, but I have to admit the same thing.

I right now without even I can visualize the wall that it's sitting on.

So I'm familiar with it.

But yeah, I this is not something I actively use in the shop.

You know, well, it was a good find.

And if you use Bondo, try this stuff.

You might like it better.

I personally like it better.

I don't think I'm going to use Bondo for much of anything.

Besides things, I need a really fast turn around.

Like sometimes I'm doing a fabric form mold and there's some weirdness somewhere and I need to apply Bondo to it so then I can continue with the fabric forming.

Then I'd use Bondo because it's going to set in a couple of minutes.

But otherwise, I'm going to stick with this stuff.

Cool, man.

Yeah.

Always up for some bringing some new things into the shop that are more conducive.

Yeah, healthier.

I feel like it's healthier.

It could be like arsenic.

Maybe that vanilla powder is just arsenic.

But I took a good whiff of it and it smelled good.

There you go.

Yeah.

To get rock hard putty up your nose.

Yeah.

So that's funny.

Yeah.

Right on.

I say here's the other benefit, Jon, is you can control the consistency.

It's a powder.

And you just scoop out the powder.

I put it in a little cup, add some water.

You just mix up to whatever consistency you like.

So you can do a lot thicker if you're doing like vertical, or you can do it thinner if you're doing something that you just need like a thin, like a fairing compound.

I don't know if you ever use fairing compound.

It's used in fiberglass.

But it's like a super thin coating.

And so I did thicker initially to fill in these big vertical sections.

But then this morning, I went back there and mixed up thinner, and I just did this like really thin, smooth layer over it.

Worked great.

But again, you have control.

You can control the consistency for different uses.

Oh, very cool.

Yeah, it is very cool, Jon.

It is very cool.

Well, that's a new find.

I mean, I'm going to get off subject for a minute.

Just it sounds like, you know, we used to do the what are things you like at the end.

Yes.

So I'm going to throw in.

All right.

So here's a find.

It's not necessarily concrete related, but Wrangler came out with a new line of jeans called 20X.

Dude, they're awesome.

I'm not, I mean, I've worn everything from Levi's various, and I've never really been into a jean, because the way things fit me, I happen to be a bulkier individual, you know, with a wider waist and so forth and so on.

You get them birth and hips.

Right?

Yeah, that's right.

I tear it up.

People with my genetics were the ones they used to send out to battle all the time, right?

We were the workhorses, you know, just stocky and good.

But yeah, so if anybody wants to check them out, Wrangler's got a 20X series that they brought out.

And again, they're supposed to be more durable.

And that will be, I will say the one thing that I would always wear out is the area between my thighs from legs rubbing and stuff.

But these jeans fit amazing and they are incredibly comfortable, very, very comfortable, which is for me has always been one of the tractors to any jeans.

So if anybody's interested now, I'm telling you, they're really nice jeans, fit great, incredibly comfortable, a little stretchy where they need to be, and tight where they need to be.

What else, Jon?

That's it, man.

That's it.

Let's get going.

Let's give Joe a call.

Let's see what he's done.

I'm anxious to find out a little bit about Japan, concrete in Japan.

I wonder if he spent any time doing that.

Yeah.

All right.

Let's call him.

Hello, Joe Bates.

Good morning, Brandon Gore.

Good morning, Jon Schuler.

Yeah, good morning, good morning.

Back from Japan, how was it?

Dude, it was incredible.

I mean, what an amazing country.

I highly recommend it.

It seems so far away and so unapproachable, but it's actually a great place to travel with a family and stuff.

It's just so safe and orderly, and wow, I can't say enough.

One of us changed.

I think I told you guys, I was there.

I lived there as a kid.

No, you didn't.

Did you really?

Yeah.

Military?

Yeah, military.

Yeah.

Crazy.

Yeah, my stepdad at the time.

Yeah, so we lived on a base.

And I mean, believe it or not, I was pretty young, comparatively speaking, but I have fond memories of everything from koi ponds and riding bikes and rice fields.

And yeah, it was beautiful.

That's awesome.

A lot of good concrete, too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They like overlays in Japan.

I follow a lot of different accounts on Instagram and TikTok.

And in Japan, they do a ton of overlays, like microcement.

It's really, really common there.

Yeah.

And they're their traditional plaster walls, which are made out of mud and then reinforced with bamboo tied together and then plastered over.

That blew my mind.

I want to try it.

Yeah.

I want to do some bamboo-reinforced concrete instead of fiberglass rebar.

Absolutely.

Well, I think first topic we should hit real quick is the upcoming Hero's Quest that we have at your place.

We tried a different format this time.

The Hero's Quest traditionally has been a longer class.

We shortened it largely due to economic factors.

You know, I feel, at least me personally, I feel people are kind of tightening up on spending right now.

And so instead of doing a longer class, which inherently is more expensive because there's more days of training, more hotel, more rental car, we shortened it up.

But in doing so, we shifted from what we'd normally do, like a more in-depth mold making like we did last time or post-tension to upright casting sinks.

That's a cool topic, but it seems that the topic that you guys keep hearing about is people want to talk about ceiling, much more in-depth on ceiling, as well as rejuvenation of concrete.

So that's something a lot of people have a lot of questions about.

They want to get hands on with that.

So the conversation we had this morning is let's pivot this class, this day and a half class, two day class, it's two day class coming up.

Let's pivot that to that, and then we'll do a hero's quest in the fall.

That's a much more in-depth on Upright Casting, a longer class, more in-depth on that, and kind of shift the format.

What do you guys think?

I'm all for it.

I mean, there's never been one that's just been strictly on sealer.

And yeah, I think people are tired of talking about it.

They want to see it.

And I think it's hugely important.

And we're going to delve into all kinds of great stuff, the actual resealing, which I think is a huge topic for a lot of people, or finding comfort in going, or a comfort level in going in and rejuvenating pieces.

And so I think we're going to try and show that, and also just a really intensive dive into properly sealing.

Yeah.

So that was going to be May 6th and 7th, Napa, California, concretedesignschool.com.

I will update the class description today with this, this pivot to this topic and...

What sealers do you guys want to show?

The last sealer you'll ever need.

That's the only one, Jon.

There you go.

No, I agree with you 100%.

Yeah, I know I get lots of feedback, continued feedback for hands-on, in-depth, focused on these final steps from processing through sealing.

So I think it'll be a great time to walk through each one.

Joe and I will have plenty of, you know, everything from torches, vacuums, hey, and along this guy.

So I'm off top.

Do you guys see Festool released a air cleaner today?

I just literally got the e-mail two seconds ago.

I'm ambivalent on Festool, bro.

I mean, you know, like, I almost went to jail when I was going to beat up one of their guys.

This was many years ago.

I'll tell the story right now because it's kind of a good story.

His name was Michael Williams.

If you're listening Michael Williams, I'm talking about you, bro.

This guy worked for Festool.

He was like their VP of sales.

And I was going to become a dealer in Tempe, Arizona.

All the people come to my classes.

I used to teach Festool like crazy.

I would tell everybody the benefits, teach them how to use a Traxol, teach them how to use a Kapex, blah, blah, blah.

Here's a Domino.

I would show them all the stuff.

And they all always wanted to buy it.

And this was 15 years ago.

This was a long time ago.

They wanted to buy it, but they flew in from New York, they flew in from LA, whatever.

And they're not going to go to a local store and buy it.

They're going to buy it online.

So I called Festool and said, hey, I want to be a distributor, but I want to drop ship.

And they said, yeah, that's fine.

We can do that.

You need to place an initial order for like $20,000 or $30,000.

This is a big initial order.

You need to place an initial order for that.

And then after that, you'll be set up as a dealer and you can sell and place drop ship orders and they'll ship it direct.

Great.

Awesome.

So they said, but first you need to put together this order.

Great.

So I did.

I put together an initial order, submitted it, and the guy hit me back and said, hey, we talked to Woodworkers Source in your area.

Now, Woodworkers Source was like 45 minutes away, and they don't want you to be a dealer.

I'm like, really?

Yeah.

They want you to send your customers to them.

Well, of course they do.

But I said, dude, that's not the way this is.

I teach classes.

These aren't people just driving up to my shop looking for the stuff.

They're coming to a class.

So I'm not selling to the public.

I'm only selling to attendees in my workshops.

They're never going to drive to Woodworkers Source, buy a tracksaw and put it under a check to luggage on the plane.

Nobody's going to do that.

So they're not losing any business.

He said, well, they don't want you to be a dealer.

So try again next year.

I was like, okay, that's weird.

Started him back in email and said, I think you're being a little short-sighted.

I'm not taking any business away.

He wrote me back, you're embarrassing yourself.

Don't email me again.

Oh my God.

Dude, I saw Red.

I saw Red and I wrote him back.

I wrote him back.

And he's like, you're not going to be a dealer.

Don't email me again.

And I was like, what in the world is going on here, right?

So I wrote him back and I just said, you're a douche bag.

I encourage you to tell me what you just said.

When I see you face to face, I will see you face to face.

I'm not going to forget.

I'll see you at a trade show and I'm going to knock your teeth in.

So you can tell me then.

And I sent the email, right?

And my assistant was out for lunch.

She came back.

Her name is Rachel.

I said, Rachel, this guy was in Seattle.

I said, book me a ticket to Seattle right now.

And she's like, why?

I'm like, I'm going to go beat this guy's face in.

Like, book me the ticket.

I can't wait to go embarrass myself.

Dude, I was going to embarrass myself.

Good.

I was going to embarrass myself with, you know, probably a six month stint in jail, but it's going to be worth it.

I was like, book me the ticket.

And she's like, are you sure?

I'm like, book his ticket, book it, book it right now.

So she's like booking it.

And I get an email from the president of Festool, like North American Festool, right?

Some German guy, but he's North American.

And apparently Michael Williams got scared and sent the email that I sent him to the president.

So the president of the email said, hey, can you give me a call?

Something's going on.

So I called him up and I told him everything.

And I said, I'll forward you the emails.

I don't want you to think I'm leaving out one side of the story or whatever.

Like this is all done via email.

I'll forward the entire email chain to you.

And he's like, I'm so sorry.

We don't work for Woodworker Source.

He should have never said that to you.

That was completely unprofessional.

And he's like, let me call him.

I'll get this straightened out.

I'll call you back.

Great.

Never heard from him again.

Never heard from either one of them again, right?

I was like, okay.

Well, that's the end of Festool for me.

Like I'm done with these guys.

So like a year or two goes by.

And I get this email from somebody through the website.

Hey, bro, how's it going?

I'm casting some concrete countertops.

I'm having some issues.

What would you advise?

Michael Williams.

I'm like, Michael Williams, why doesn't name sound familiar?

Like, why?

How do I know that name?

And I like search, sure enough, this guy that talked all this trash and did all this stuff left Festool, he's no longer with him, and wrote this message to me, hey, bro, like we're buddies, right?

Just blew my mind.

So anyways, my point is Festool, I could take it or leave it.

Like people come to my class now and they're like, hey, track.

I'm like, there's better brands out there.

I don't know if I would recommend Festool to anybody.

So the opinion that, my opinion is, they're coming out with too much stuff.

Like at this point, they should just focus on making the products they have better.

But every week I get an email pop up from some Woodwork Supply of like some new Festool whatever.

They're just carpet bombing the market with as many products as they can do, which I think is a mistake, but that's just my own opinion.

Well, here's what I'm going to say based on the air filter email that I got.

Now, first off, I'm going to tell you, I haven't seen a design like this.

So I honestly, if there's something else available, I would probably get it.

So if you look at their new air filters called Sysair HEPA, it's very similar in size and shape as their cistern boxes, right?

So it's square.

It's got a handle.

You can put it on that rolling track.

Anyway, super simple, super simple.

The issue for me, like Joe, you got one of those air cleaners or air purifiers, whatever they're called in your shop because we use it.

They're big and they're bulky.

You know, having something like that, and again, I'm thinking the reseals, man.

I mean, I'm in someone's kitchen and I'm already got, you know, the two Sanders going, I got the two vacuums going.

I put them on the long hoses anyway, so you're not tripping and stepping over vacuums and have in a unit, the size of what I'm looking at here with that ability to clean the air and then have a handle that I just pick up essentially like the, the size of the I'm going to say, it's probably the size of their larger storage containers.

Dude, that's a plus.

That's a massive plus compared to the larger.

What's the, what's the brand of yours Joe that you have at your place?

The one you do around the mixer.

I can't remember, excuse me, the name of it.

But yeah, they're big and bulky.

I mean, they're great in the shop because we're not, yeah, but I don't drag them out to the job site.

I'm just looking at it now on the website.

And yeah, 400 CFM, three full changes per hour in a 600 square foot room.

Yeah, it's pretty amazing.

I mean, the other ones are much more powerful than that, but they'll suck in the doors and windows if you're not careful.

So.

Right.

And that's what I'm saying.

So again, I'm not here to pump Festool, but I could tell you based on what I'm looking at right here, if there was somebody offering something similar based on that, this would be a very good addition per what we're talking about with an upcoming workshop.

If people are going to do reseals, rejuvenations, and you are sanding in someone's home, I know I've told my story.

I felt like yours.

I was embarrassing myself.

We went in there with the vacuums and I was sanding.

We were doing all the stuff we normally do.

And I always remember the client was like, Hey, should I cover the couch and stuff?

You know, I can put sheets and stuff down and I'm like, man, I was so confident.

Like, Oh no, look, I got these vacuums going.

And yeah, this is, you know, and I got covers, yeah, no problem at all.

And this is, Jayden was helping me, my son.

And when we broke for lunch, oh my God, man, I looked back, looked back on all the flat surfaces, you know, like her cabinets.

And I'm like, Oh my God, I dusted out her house.

And I didn't even know it.

Two things happened that day.

I learned, always put new bags in your vacuums.

It doesn't matter.

You know, if you're going to a new reseal job or whatever, always put new bags.

Don't reuse a bag, no matter how empty you think it might be.

That dust ends up so fine.

You know, it just always put in new bags and have an air filter of some sort in the house, running to cut down on that.

Because I felt like a complete idiot going, and I did, I went through and dusted her whole, you know, went through and dusted her whole house after that.

Yeah.

I built a dust extractor using a squirrel cage motor, but a new one, not like the ones you see on eBay, or not eBay, but Facebook Marketplace, but new ones.

And standard 24 by 24 air filters, four of them.

And I used two of the squirrel cage motors in there, whatever they're called.

But those are great because they're designed for that type of environment where a lot of people say, oh, just use a box fan and put filters on it.

It's not designed for that type of pulling air.

So it actually doesn't create the CFM you think it's creating, but these do because they're designed for HVAC, for like low pressure or whatever it is.

I watched this whole thing about the science of it and why those work and why box fans don't work.

But I built one and dude, it works awesome.

My shop in the back is 2000 square feet, but it's probably 15 foot ceilings.

It clears the dust quick.

I don't know what the turnover is, but I mean, I'll blow dust and within a minute or two, the shop, you can look and there's no dust in the air.

So, yeah, it works really good.

We're talking, here's what he said, here's what he said.

November 18th, 2011, 927 a.m., Michael Williams to me, you're an idiot, seriously, a complete and utter moron.

With each and every word you write, you reaffirm our decision not to invite you into the ranks of our dealers.

And I said, I welcome the opportunity to listen to what you tell me when you have no teeth.

I said that at 933.

So anyways, I looked this guy up while we're talking.

He sells leather aprons now.

He left Festool, now he makes leather aprons.

So he's a leather daddy.

So whatever.

All right.

So I got a whole list of things here we could talk about.

But one of them, and this came up today, there's a customer that hit me up.

And he purchased a company from a previous individual.

And the products they manufacture, they're using traditional concrete, they're using rebar, they're curing for up to three weeks.

Because the guy he bought it from, that's what he did.

So this guy comes in, he's not a concrete person, but he bought this company, and he wants to scale it up, and he wants to expand their offerings.

But he's doing a lot of things in a very kind of antiquated way, an incorrect way.

Like we talked about Fu Teng Cheng's book, they used to talk about curing for three weeks.

That's probably where the guy, the previous owner got it from, was Fu Teng Cheng's book.

So they've been doing all these things incorrectly, but he asked me, what's the thinnest I can cast concrete?

And I said, well, with GFRC, I prefer one inch.

Some people go half, some people go three quarter, but I'm of the opinion that one inch is incredibly strong.

And that's where I try to aim for everything.

He's like, oh my God, we can do one inch?

I'm like, yeah, bro.

Like, of course.

He's like, how long do I get a cure for?

I'm like, overnight, 24 hours.

He's like, what?

We're doing three weeks.

I'm like, dude, no, I was like, I'll blow your mind with where technology is today.

But GFRC is something we take for granted.

The idea of lightweight concrete, of casting thin shell sections.

We've been doing it for so long that it's to us, it's old hat and we don't really think about it.

But there's a huge swath of the population out there in the concrete industry that still is unaware of GFRC and the benefits of GFRC, which was a conversation we're having in 2005, 2006, 2007.

But 2025, it's still a conversation that a lot of people haven't heard yet, and I think it's a good one.

So that's something, Joe, that I would like to talk with you about is GFRC.

What is great about...

Well, first, you should talk about what is GFRC, but what makes it so great for our use in this artisan industry?

I mean, are we including sort of poured, cast GFRC in that, or are you talking spray up?

Well, that's a good question.

When you define GFRC.

Well, for me, and this is something that a lot of people have a misconception of, they always feel that GFRC has to be sprayed, out of a hopper gun or out of a chopstrand gun or whatever.

For me, GFRC is any concrete that's reinforced with glass fiber.

GFRC stands for glass fiber reinforced concrete.

I can't even talk today.

So GFRC, so any concrete that we're reinforcing a glass fiber is to me GFRC.

Now, how we apply it, whether we're pouring it or spraying it, to me, that's a judgment call on the piece you're making, which way you want to approach it, but it's still GFRC.

Yeah.

I mean, it's in the name.

There's nothing about spraying in GFRC.

So yeah, I'm the same way.

And I'm talking about production.

We've been taking a deep dive into production.

We're in the middle of a job where we're producing 280 exterior cladding panels to cover an entire house.

Crazy.

And we're employing GFRC.

I've gotten rid of scrim.

I've come to feel that scrim is not helping us in that situation, and actually causes more problems than it creates.

Well, it definitely turns you down.

Yeah, trying to layer two pieces of scrim into there, and top and bottom, which is the only way it...

I actually believe it causes some curling on the backside.

And I know this might be disputed by some people.

But I don't feel it's a good one.

I actually feel if you're trying to get glass fiber into there, it creates a bond breaking situation when you lay that scrim in, and the fiber isn't actually going through it.

Yeah, it's creating a shear plane in the piece.

Yeah, we got rid of that.

We bumped our fiber loading up.

We've got a little bit of PVA 400 in there.

And I mean, they're insanely strong panels.

They're 84 inches long by 28 inches wide, and just turning out beautifully.

And we're caring for one day.

We don't, with the way we did it, we're not even adding heat.

We're stacking the panels in the molds so that they create, they generate enough heat in that mass.

They're so close together that we're just covering it with sort of a foam box so that it keeps that heat in.

And we come in in the morning, and we're registering about 111 degrees in the middle of that stack.

And they've been incredibly even.

We're demolding the next day and taking them through processing that morning through acid, and then letting them go for another day before we seal them.

Get a couple layers of ICT on there, applications of ICT and putting them on a rack, and letting them sit for another week.

And it's kind of been crazy.

I mean, the shop's been in this really amazing routine where it's just, we do that's what we do on Monday and Tuesday and Thursday and Friday.

And we have Wednesday to kind of mop up and clean up.

And then we start again on Monday.

And it's been really cool to actually get a routine down.

You show up in the morning, it's like, okay, I know what I'm doing today.

This is all I got to do.

For sure.

So, benefits of GFRC, I mean, why are you using this material, this product versus traditional concrete with steel reinforcement?

Well, you just, you couldn't.

I mean, you couldn't even get a piece of rebar in it.

These panels are five-eighths of an inch thick.

And they're, we're using the Kyle anchor system to mount them.

And yeah, they're lightweight.

They're able to be pretty easily handled by two people.

You can pick them up from end to end, which blew the contractor's mind when he's doing the install, when we showed him that.

And yeah, what aren't the benefits?

I mean, to be able to cast that thin and have that kind of turn around, it's pretty amazing.

I mean, I'd say the only downfall of more traditional GFRC is all the polymer that's in it.

These pieces are actually getting darker as they age.

There's a whole oxidation process that works.

Whereas anything with that amount of polymer of traditional GFRC would start to blush and actually get whiter over time.

Yeah, you know, I talked to Hiram about the polymer.

And early on, when they were working on GFRC, I'm talking about Hiram Ball, who's now pat...

Sorry, hit the microphone.

Hiram Ball was one of the inventors of GFRC.

And when they first started developing GFRC, they didn't have alkali-resistant glass fiber back then.

They were just using traditional fiberglass.

Yeah, e-fiber.

And they were using the polymer to help mitigate the alkaline environment, the concrete attacking the glass.

And so they were loading polymer at extremely high loads to try to offset that.

And I really feel that it was something that they did for that reason.

But then when alkali-resistant glass fiber came about, they just stuck with it because that's what they'd always been doing up to that point.

And then they started looking for other things that they could say, this is a benefit.

Well, you know, we can do it to it for our dry cure.

We can increase the abrasion resistance.

All these things.

After you use it and then you don't use it, you find out none of those things are really true.

You know, as you're saying, traditional GFRC would blush out, it would turn white.

It didn't help color, it hurt color.

And it foamed the concrete and created air and created all these different things, created issues with sealer.

But it was something that was very profitable.

They got it certified for PCI certification.

And so they were able to then sell it in tanker trucks to factories.

And it's just something that kind of became de facto.

But, you know, as we've all kind of learned over the last few years with Maker Mix and RadMix, you don't need it.

And by taking it out, actually, you end up with a much better concrete.

That's a really interesting story.

I didn't know that.

And it makes total sense.

They were using it to combat the alkali fibers that they were using.

And then it just kind of became, you know, I mean, I see it so often.

It's so hard to get contractors that have done stuff a certain way.

And I don't blame them.

Look, man, it's risky.

If they know something works, why are they going to change?

Because it means a huge amount of risk on their part to, you know, rethink the way they're doing things and embrace a new technology.

And that's why you see stuff just continue to get done in that traditional manner.

Well, it's working.

We're selling it.

People aren't complaining.

And, you know, why stop?

It's a huge risk to change.

Yeah, I was nervous.

I mean, it made me nervous to do this whole job.

And, you know, I'm responsible for the cladding on this house.

It's I there's occasionally nights when I wake up at three o'clock in the morning and just go, am I crazy for doing this?

Yeah, take it on project.

I mean, take it on a project like this.

No, I mean, look at like James Hardie board that they've clad in tie.

In Tempe, there's entire condo complexes clad in just Hardie board, you know, and that stuff's like half inch thick.

You can break it with your hand, go up and punch it.

You know, I mean, the wind breaks it sometimes in Tempe.

Like nothing hits it.

Just high winds will crack the panels.

And so you compare that to what you're making?

Dude, it's incredible.

I know.

And yeah, it takes a while to calm myself down and just kind of remember all these different things.

And, you know, including the KEIL Anchor system.

And I have to say that company and Abhi, who runs sort of the US distributorship for that out of Florida, this guy has been amazing and really helping to instill confidence in the whole system and actually using GFRC to do this.

He's like, look, there's companies that put this stuff up on 36-story high rises in Florida and hurricane weather.

And this system is designed for that.

All of your stuff meets the parameters.

You know, I sent in the GFRC to do a pullout test.

And we came in with much better pullout numbers than most average GFRCs and makers mix.

So that was a huge confidence boost for me to say.

And what's the name of these anchors?

The KEIL Anchor System.

How do you spell it?

So it's a K-I-E-L.

Got it.

It's a German company.

And you know, it's a special drill that goes in the back and creates sort of a dovetail hole.

K-E-I-L.

Yeah, K-E-I-L.

Yeah, K-E-I-L.

I always thought it was Kiel, but no, it's Kyle.

KEIL!

KEIL!

Well, I know.

That's how they say it in Germany anyways.

Yeah, I want to give a shout out.

Yeah, definitely.

I don't, I mean, I don't do these.

So I'd love to see what kind of anchor systems.

But you know, we are touching on a subject that even recently came up in some postings on various forums where a materials provider just out of nowhere said, hey, you know, why don't you use this?

And this is what, you know, which again, happened to be some polymer and stuff.

And, and I think not, I think, experience has shown us that that supposed tried and true method, even though some people are continuing to try to keep those products alive, experience has shown us that they are not conducive, you know?

And I guess at the end of the day, like Brandon and I have talked about other things, you know, the way for our companies, big or small, to survive is you have to make things that people want.

And at the end of the day, the pros to cons of adding some of these ad mixtures, even if you look and go, hey, well, look, it makes the concrete better, whatever better means, you know, compression or whatever the case may be.

That's not what the client's looking for, you know?

They're looking for a surface that's gonna be durable, and at the end of the day, they don't care if it was a 2000 PSI concrete or a 22,000 PSI concrete.

That's not their interest.

And I know materials providers want that to be our interest, but it's not.

So if putting these things, regardless of the, you know, foaming and, you know, maybe they added more to foam or maybe they did these kinds of things.

Still the attractiveness versus where these are finishes ends up typically with sealer choices because, right?

I mean, sealers don't like moisture.

They don't like these polymers, topical or otherwise.

So for me, it's continues to be something that I'm not telling people not to use them, do whatever you do, whatever you're happy with, but just realize that to one degree or another, you're shooting yourselves in the foot.

Yeah.

Hey, that's a very good segue, something I want to talk about here in a second.

But Joe, back to this Keil anchor system, do you have the drill machine that makes the hole?

Yeah.

Yeah, you have to.

I mean, it's pretty useless without it.

Yeah.

Well, I didn't know if it's something that the client was doing, like you're just making the panels and they're doing that on-site, or if you're drilling the holes in your shop.

What did that machine cost?

What did that drill machine cost?

It ain't cheap.

It's about $6,000.

But it's a really well thought out and nicely designed machine.

We're putting holes on a preset pattern in the back of the panels from the factory.

The contractor is going to probably need to end up getting one as well.

You can actually rent them, which is pretty cool.

They'll just send it out to you for a certain amount of time and you can get your project done and send it back.

I think in this one was such a long-term project, it was cheaper just to buy it.

Yeah, now you have it.

Look, dude, there's a million uses for it.

Anytime you have to attach a panel to a wall, this thing is indispensable.

The way the whole system works, I mean, anybody who's tried to put up decorative concrete panels, you can't, it's an amazing system.

Well, this is something that I would love to see at the Heroes Quest.

Yeah, absolutely, this is super cool.

Yeah, I've always been interested in this, but I've never really found a good solution.

Yeah, no, it's a great system.

I mean, anybody that comes out to the sealer thing, we're going to be in the middle of production during that whole thing, so we're happy to show it off.

And again, in the fall, I'm always happy to demo it.

It doesn't take very long, and it's really neat to see.

It's such a cool system.

You know, it's kind of crazy.

The whole thing, we talked to an engineer on it, and we provided all the data that we'd gotten from Abhi and they didn't care about any of it.

They're like, how much is each panel away?

And what's the offset from the wall?

Okay, and like they didn't care about pullout numbers or anything.

It was kind of nuts once it came down to like, you know, getting confidence and getting it through the engineer.

We thought it was going to be way harder, but it was not a problem at all.

That's awesome.

Well, Jon, what you're talking about, which was something that was on my list of things to talk about today was you're right.

There have been several companies go out of business lately.

And there's all the reasons why, but one of the reasons that they're going out of business, which you alluded to, was they're not making things people want to buy.

Number one, like that's you have to make things people want to buy.

And if you don't, then it's going to be a tough road.

But the second thing that we talked about in the last podcast is how do you create something unique about what you're offering versus other people in your market, especially if you're in a market where you're local.

So if you're not shipping national or international, if you're focused on your local market, you need to set yourself apart.

And with the Make America Healthy thing again, that's going on right now, which is funny.

Dude, I watched, last time I was watching NBC News, Nightly News.

In Wisconsin or Minnesota, I can't remember which state, but they just outlawed seven food dyes for children, right?

Or for food, but because of, it's been shown to cause behavioral issues in children.

So they outlawed seven.

The newscaster, I was amazed that he said this, but it was fascinating to me.

He said, you know, they outlawed seven food dyes, although there's no proven evidence that food dyes are harmful for children.

OK, then he said, the reason they haven't tested it is because it's unethical for the food companies to test it because they believe it to be harmful to children.

So it's unethical to test it.

And because it's unethical to test, because they believe it'd be harmful, they can stand on their soapbox and say, there's no proven data.

Yet they won't test it because they believe it to be harmful, yet they still put it in food when they believe it to be harmful.

Anyways, my point is, we really kind of, you know, talked about in the last podcast, the crystal and silica free high-performance concrete, which Maker Mix and Rad Mix are now in that classification, crystal and silica free.

And I really, truly believe that if you give the clients, if you let the clients know, this is what I do.

Let me tell you about what we do.

And this is how it benefits you, is you don't want crystal and silica products in your home.

You know, Australia's outlawed it.

You don't want this in your home.

For your children, for your health, you don't want those products.

And if you can let the client know that there is an alternative to an unhealthy product, to a healthy product, you as a concrete business owner are putting yourself in a position to generate more sales.

That's my opinion.

I really think it's something that, with a focus on health in our current environment, it's a great selling point.

I'm going to get hats made that say, make concrete safe again, or make concrete healthy again.

Red hat, white letters, Joe's going to wear it.

Joe's going to wear one.

I know Joe's going to wear one, right?

Make concrete healthy again.

God.

MCHA.

Well, you know, the funny thing about that is, I mean, here we're talking about concrete, but all right.

So I'm just going to tell you guys this.

One of my weaknesses is I like peanut M&Ms, right?

I admit it.

I totally dig peanut M&Ms.

But if you told me another company besides Mars or whoever made those without, you know, the bright colors, you know, I would buy them in a heartbeat because I'm not actually buying the peanut M&Ms because they're yellow and green and whatever red.

I buy them because I love the chocolate with the peanuts and I like the crunch of the candy outside.

So I don't know.

It's just interesting.

And just because we're focused on this subject for a minute is America hasn't come for whatever reason.

We haven't come up to this, but our northern neighbors, Canada, I think I told you, Simon Tipple sent us some snack foods not long ago.

Simon's super cool.

And he's like, Hey, you know, I'm going to send you some of our Canadian snacks.

And I'm like, okay.

Yeah.

I didn't think much about it.

Then they got here and I'm like, oh my God, why is there stuff so much healthier than ours?

That's crazy.

Anyway.

Yeah.

What's with those psychopaths that eat those M&M's with no peanuts in them anyway?

I don't know.

They're just M&M's, aren't they?

Yeah, they're just plain old M&M's.

They're disgusting is what they are.

Come on.

Yeah, M&M's are awesome.

And the almonds one too are awesome.

Yeah.

Anyways, yeah, I think that's it's an important part of where we're headed as an industry.

The United States is a little bit behind.

Australia is already there.

I think Europe is going to get there.

But for concrete companies today, you're going to go meet with an architect.

You're going to meet.

This is really a conversation for the specifiers, the architects and designers and let them know we have a healthier product.

And this goes back to sealer.

You know, Joe, you didn't always use ICT.

There's a time you're using a toxic sealer.

That's horrible.

I never did.

I thought you did.

I have tried them.

Jon was literally, I, you know, when I first ran on to him in some of the old forums was literally the earliest days of doing concrete.

And one of my biggest questions was trying to figure out what sealer to use.

And that immediately sent me down an internet rabbit hole.

But thankfully, looking at, looking at what was listed and what the options were and what Jon was posting, I chose ICT sort of out of the gate and started using it from day one.

And definitely kept an open mind.

I think the very first piece I ever sealed was sort of Chang's beeswax.

So yeah, I did try other stuff first, but I immediately was incredibly frustrated with it and it led me to Jon pretty quickly.

And it's been a blissful relationship ever since.

So you never went down the road of toxic sealers, but I mean, that's something that a lot of concrete companies out there, for whatever reason, they're using, you know, urethanes, epoxies, all these different things that are catalyzed sealer that have isothionates and different things in them that are super toxic for the artisan in their own shop space.

But then once you put them in the client's home, they still continue to be a toxic material in the client's home.

So if you're able to inform the client, educate the client on what sets us apart, that only helps your business.

It only helps set you apart because if a client has the choice between a toxic product and a healthy product and a healthy product, they will choose that every single time.

If you had the choice in a product, you would choose the healthier product.

So that's my opinion.

Yeah, the sealer one has always been a great, has always been a great sales tool and really helpful.

I mean, when you go, it's just, it's glorified car paint on your countertop if you're not using this.

That immediately kind of gets their attention.

They're like, okay, that's, yeah, all right, awesome.

Even more reason to do it.

So yeah, yeah, you did a class or you did something at your workshop or you guys used a sealer that was being demonstrated by.

Was that at your place?

The guy that came to starts with an S ends with an L.

Yeah, he like slept on the floor in your shop.

The guy that came to do the demonstration, was that right?

Yeah, he didn't get a hotel.

He just flew in on an airplane and slept on the floor and then flew out.

Was that what happened?

Something like that.

Hitchhiked to get to the shop.

And I thank God for that giant spray booth that I have in the shop, sucking all that crap out of there because it was really atrocious.

Yeah, yeah.

So that's a good example.

I mean, even though you haven't done it, how toxic can be to use sealer like that?

And it would be horrible to do that every single day in your shop.

Yeah, we've tried to give, I try to give a fair assessment to everything.

And I almost always, well, hardly ever anymore, but I will order some and just go, well, what's everybody talking about?

And immediately just, Jesus, I don't care what the issues are, what the perceived issues are with ICT or anything.

It's always just, it's never given me any major issues and anything that has come up, I've been able to fix really easily.

And unless you get that other crap done exactly right, right out of the gate, if there is any issue down the road, it's a nightmare to deal with.

Well, I'll tell you what, Joe, I'm gonna, now that I've just seen that Festool one, I'll look, I mean, what were, I mean, maybe Bosch or somebody else has come up with something similar, but I think that's a great idea.

And I'll try to have one before the workshop, before the two days in May, because honestly, I think something like that, available for guys that are gonna, doing reseals, rejuvenations and so forth, I think having a portable air cleaner, to me, it's a must.

I really do think it's a must.

I'll wait for one that's red.

Yeah, you paint it red.

Just make your own.

I'm telling you, man, the one I made cost me, I bought the little Squirrel Cage fans off Amazon, and they're little, they're not big.

I bought two of them.

Each one's like 100 and something bucks.

And I built this thing for probably less than 300 bucks, and it works better than the $3,000 ones.

You can make it to fit in a doorway, go through a standard doorway, mine's on casters, roll it into a house, put big casters on it, so it rolls over rough stuff.

Roll it into a house, plug it in, kick it on.

Sucks all the air right through the filters.

Yeah, there you go.

Yeah.

But I've always liked Festool.

I like the way they treat their customers.

Well, that was back in the day when there was this whole aura, how the hell you say it, surrounding Festool.

It was like, whoo, you bought a Festool, big spender.

I bought Festool before Festool was widely available in the United States.

When I bought it way back in the day, you had to order it.

There was no stores carrying it when I first started buying it.

And I found out about it because of a solid surface company that was doing Corian, and they were manufacturing everything for Banquan Ballpark in downtown Phoenix on site.

So they'd bring the Corian in, and they would cut all the pieces, glue it, seam it, blah, blah, blah, for all the countertops, bathrooms, all this kind of stuff.

And they were using Festool, because it was the only way to get these really precise joints between the pieces.

And that's how I learned about it.

But yeah, I mean, anymore, what's that brand that starts with an M?

What is it?

Mofel?

Yeah, that's like the new hot one, if you're the super cool woodworker, you know, the Mofel stuff.

That's the Festool of Festool, you know, Mofel.

Yeah, yeah.

In that world, like Festool is Ryobi, and Mofel is Festool.

Yeah, yeah.

So I've looked at that online, it looks pretty, pretty cool.

But you know, at the end of the day, DeWalt, Makeda...

It's all just marketing hype.

Yeah, well, I would say, I've seen the Makeda tracksaws in person, I've seen the DeWalt tracksaws in person, they're not quite as good, like the details are a little sloppy on it.

But for what we do, for making forms, it's gonna be fine.

Like it's gonna be fine.

That's why I tell people when they come in, like, oh, I need to go buy this.

Yeah, I'm not telling you not to buy it, but I'm saying like, get the Makeda.

Like honestly, you're gonna be fine.

Do you need a Capex?

No, you don't need a Capex.

I'm just doing 90 degree cuts for melamine, 99% of the time.

I could use any chop saw to do this.

I could get a $50 chop saw and do what I'm doing.

So you don't need it to do what we do, is my point.

I wish you could harness some of the power of those Instagram videos that just make you feel so much like you need to own that tool.

They work so well.

If I could just figure out how to like switch that around to concrete countertops and get it on there so people felt like they were so inferior for not owning one, that would be the magic sauce.

Well, we got to wrap.

I think this call is going to end.

I don't know what's going to happen.

I mean, I guess we have to keep going.

A couple minutes, got a couple minutes left.

We got five minutes.

I got the, okay.

You got five minutes.

What do you want to talk about, Joe?

This last five minutes.

Yeah, for five minutes, hit us, Joe.

How much sushi did you go through?

Jesus.

The food thing was crazy in Japan, but we had some incredible sushi and 7-Eleven in Japan.

Jesus Christ.

Looks amazing.

And high balls, whiskey and sodas, and vending machines on the street.

The vending machines in Japan are incredible.

They're insane.

Hot coffee wherever you are.

I don't think you were ever more than 200 feet from the vending machine in Japan.

It was insane.

Even the craziest residential neighborhood.

You'd come around a corner, half a block from the house and there'd be a vending machine with hot and cold drinks in it.

Yeah.

Always full and immaculate.

And I saw the ones that was like live crabs in them, where you go in and get a vending machine, a crab.

I didn't see that.

There are some great markets there.

Yeah.

I watched Kill Bill 1 and 2 a couple of years ago.

Dude, Charlie Brown.

Charlie Brown.

I love Charlie Brown.

I love that whole Kill Bill 1 and 2.

I mean, I've seen both of them probably 20 times now, over the years.

But to watch it again, it's just so incredible.

But Kill Bill 1 is the one in Japan, right?

And then Kill Bill 2 is the Western, where it's more Western style.

But yeah, I mean, it's just so good.

The sushi, what's his name?

The guy that makes the swords?

Hitori Hanzo.

Oh, yeah.

Hanzo.

Is that a Hitori Hanzo?

Yeah.

It's phenomenal.

Well, we did a one-day metal working class over there with a swordsmith and did a knife and got to work in his shop.

And it was so incredible.

But it was also really just like, you know, the universal maker spirit.

You know, you think it's like this really crazy thing in Japan.

But at the same time, he had a bar in a shop with a keg of ice cold, you know, Sapporo.

And he just, we immediately connected on that maker level.

Of, and it just made me feel like, you know, this isn't like this some holier than now thing.

I mean, this guy made, you know, $50,000, $100,000 swords for a living and kitchen knives.

But just to get to hang with him in his shop and have him crack the same sort of carpenter jokes and just, you know, just, it was such an amazing experience.

And it just reminded me that, you know, on that level, we're all sort of the same.

And it was really cool to see.

And he had some great advice.

And even in one day, bringing a couple of total newbies and Max and I and my son had a little bit of experience in blacksmithing.

And there were two other guys there.

And really just an amazing teacher.

And just got so much information across.

And it was just so cool to be in that shop with an old school bellows driven forge, coal.

I mean, we were pounding high carbon steel, which normally, you know, with a little propane, propane forge and a traditional anvil in the US, you know, it's a lot of work.

You feel it.

Your hammer kind of bounces off of it.

The way his was set up and using a traditional Japanese anvil, it was unbelievable.

We were moving that metal like it was nothing.

And really just a great experience.

Highly recommended if you ever go to Japan to do something like that.

Well, guys, let's wrap this up.

What do you say?

Joe, I'm going to update the website, but looking forward to the class coming up.

And if anybody has any questions, or you need to place an order for Maker Mix, Rad Mix, Glass Fiber, Joe sells Glass Fiber, hit up Joe.

Joe at scfabnappa.com is his email.

That's right.

We will sell you any amount of anything.

If you don't want to buy half a pallet, please don't feel free to reach out to me.

We're here to help get you through whatever DIY project, small bathroom pieces.

I get people calling me all the time, and they're always really super happy to have the support that we provide for this stuff.

So, and I'm happy to do it.

It's really awesome to do.

We started this podcast talking about GFRC, but we kind of went off track.

But glass fiber, I mean, that's the most important part of GFRC.

You can't do glass fiber, reinforced concrete without glass fiber.

And Joe sells glass fiber.

Which glass fiber do you sell, Joe?

The good stuff.

We got the smaller Tex.

So Tex is sort of the measure of bundle size.

Traditional three quarter inch glass fiber is 135 Tex.

And the stuff we sell is an 80 Tex.

So it's a little bit stealthier and it's also only a half an inch long.

And I feel like it's just a better overall, it doesn't inhibit your flow as much.

And just it provides a very negligible reduction in strength.

But the benefits far outweigh the downside, which is hardly anything.

So it's a great fiber made by Dow Corning.

And we do have it available in 13 pound bags.

Awesome.

And what does that run per bag?

I'm going to put you on the spot, Joe.

Yeah, it's not cheap.

I think we come in at about $6 a pound.

But the more people begin to order it from me, the more the price will start to come down.

So it's a little harder to get.

Gotcha.

Well, I bought it from you.

And there was a company on the West Coast that used to sell fiber, but they went out of business.

And so, you know, Joe's...

Yeah, they were carrying the 135 tex though.

Yeah.

But Joe's the resource now.

And when people hit me up and say, hey, where can I get fiber?

Joe Bates, joe at scfabnapa.

Hit him up, get your fiber.

Jon, you got anything?

No, man.

As always, man, good talking to you guys.

Absolutely.

All right, Joe.

Well, until next time, buddy.

Awesome to talk to you guys.

All right.

Talk to you later.

Adios!

Adios.