The Internets Most Underwhelming Concrete Table

Hey there, concrete enthusiasts. Ever stood before a project thinking, "There's got to be a better way to do this"? Well, slide on in, because this week on The Concrete Podcast, BG and Jon are ready to turn that underwhelming table into a conversation starter. We're talking about joining melamine pieces to stretch your casting surfaces further than you thought possible. We'll tackle the art of mitigating curling, so your work stays true to form. And those pesky stains that sneak in during casting? We're sharing how to prevent them and erase them before sealing. So, settle in, and let's get your concrete game rolling to the next level.

 

#ConcreteCrafting #MelamineJoining #ConcretePodcast #CastingTechniques #ConcreteStains #DIYConcrete #ConcreteTips #BGandJon #ConcreteArtistry #ConcreteSolutions

TRANSCRIPT:

0:15

Hello Jon Schuler.

Hello, Brandon Gore.

Hey, buddy.

Hey buddy, I'm back from the Wilds.

Oh, that's right, last week, huh?

Yeah, I went camping.

Went camping with like 60 kids age 6 to maybe 10 or 11 or so.

0:35

So you took out the savages?

Yeah, but it was a good time.

It was a really good time.

It was a fun time.

The kids had a great time and beautiful, you know, Kansas people.

It's funny, Like the conversations I have with people.

When I said I lived in Phoenix, nobody asked why.

0:52

Phoenix, Right.

Where do you live?

Phoenix.

Oh, cool.

Yeah, I've been there a few times.

Great, where do you live?

Eureka Springs, AR Oh, I hear great things about Northwest Arkansas.

Where do you live?

Wichita.

Why Kansas?

That's what does it matter to you #1 #2 like, what do you get against Kansas, you know?

1:11

But there's just.

Well, hang on, how far did you guys go?

Well, I'm just saying hold on.

I'm saying I'm in the state of Kansas right now.

Wichita, KS.

When I tell people Wichita their immediate response, it's not like, oh you know, I love the Plains or I love whatever.

Why Kansas?

Like they got this preconceived hatred towards Kansas, you know, and it affects them somehow, which blows my mind.

1:33

But anyways, we, you know, it's only an hour and a half from Wichita, but it was beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.

It's in the Flint Hills, which I want to build in the Flint Hills.

If my wife was more open to it, I'd be open to driving an outreach day to build in the Flint Hills because it's beautiful.

1:49

It's rolling hills, doesn't even look real, looks like CGI, but these rolling hills, but it's on the edge of the Flint Hills where we went Big Lake.

But the night sky posted pictures on my Facebook.

Maybe I'll put if you go to kodiakpro.com and Scroll down on the podcast, I'll post the pictures I took of the night sky with my iPhone.

2:05

But the Milky Way, I want to live in Arizona.

I never saw it like this.

It was insane.

It was incredible.

So that was a great time.

OK, hold on again.

I'd see.

I get off.

I start thinking as you know where my head is, AIM and I-55.

I would like more information because we like hills.

2:24

I have no problem.

You take your wheelchairs down the hills.

What do you do?

Your Walker.

You can take your Walker down that hill.

That's right, the two of us, honey.

Let's go sledding.

Let's no, you know, I live in the mountains, so everything I love is about, you know, the mountains and, you know, small communities and etcetera, etcetera.

2:46

And, you know, California continues to get more and more expensive.

It is what it is.

And at some point, you know, the realization is there.

As much as I love this place for everything it has to offer, I also hate this place for as much as it keeps putting my hand in their my, their hands in my pocket.

3:05

It just becomes unaffordable.

That's just the United States, man.

That's just the United States.

If I didn't have kids, I would move to a state that didn't have income tax, property tax.

There's a few states out there.

They're like that.

But you know, three kids.

It's hard to live out in the middle of nowhere, but that's where I live.

3:23

But I didn't have kids because it's becoming progressively more and more unaffordable in this country.

But that's a conversation for a different.

Whole different conversation.

So I went to this event.

I was one of the chaperones and there was other parents there.

There was three other dads and two other moms.

3:41

And then I was there and I've never met these people.

They don't know me, but they all know each other.

So they're all kind of like cliquey, like, oh, hey, high 5, you know, and I just walk up and I already like thought through how I was going to introduce myself.

3:57

So I just walk up and I say, have you guys ever had diarrhea on a plane before?

And they look at me, I'm like, because I have.

Mind if I sit?

Down, dude.

Best opener.

They died.

4:13

Died.

It was like Alan from what was that movie? Alan in the movie The Hangover.

So it worked.

It worked.

The dads liked me, the moms, you know, whatever, but the dads like me.

So there you go.

Yeah, I don't know what to say to that.

4:32

Man, I know you're just nose breathing over there.

Well.

I don't know what to say.

It's most dads that can't stand you.

It's the ladies.

You're always.

Hot with the ladies.

Normally, Normally, but that's funny.

4:50

Apparently if they're married with kids, they're not into me as much.

So yeah, there you go.

There you go.

What can you do?

But yeah, so that was that was my week last week and then this week I'm trying to get back into it.

But you know, it takes a minute to get back in the grind, but I'm getting there.

5:09

So.

Yeah, so I got a list of things to go through here, something that was funny that time I'm getting back in the grind.

I'm sitting here looking at this this little cool table we made in the class and dude, I.

Love the Internet's most underwhelming table.

Where are you going to steal my Thunder, Jon?

Why do you steal my Thunder?

5:25

I'm trying to tell something here.

You're just going to step right on my.

You're just going to step right on my.

What are you doing?

Dads love you.

Dads love you.

Jesus, I'm going to start this again.

I might cut that out.

I might leave it in.

I don't know.

The most underwhelming?

5:41

Table.

Dude I love it.

So, Jon, I'm going to pretend you didn't just do that.

I'm going to do this again.

So I'm sitting here looking at this beautiful table.

It's an amazing table.

Some say it's the greatest table.

I've heard people say it's the greatest table ever made, but I posted a photo I.

5:56

Thought I even saw a couple billboards up about it.

Yeah, yeah, beautiful table.

Posted photos on the table and some guy felt the need to like, hop on social media and say I was in the podcast, I had to find the table.

6:13

And I have to say, I'm underwhelmed.

I literally, I literally laughed out loud when I read that comment because it took me 20, dude, it took me 21 years to finally underwhelm somebody.

And I thought I did it.

I've done it.

I finally did it.

Here it is.

6:30

It took me this long, but I did it, Jon.

I underwhelm.

Somebody that's awesome.

Yeah.

So.

So now I'm going to market this table as the most underwhelming side.

Table underwhelmer.

I just love it.

But you know what?

Like I said, it reminds me of, I don't know.

6:47

I remember there was a a salmon shop or something like that.

Yeah, during COVID.

And they'd write Yelp reviews and say it's the worst meatball sub I ever had.

And they'd put a billboard outside and say come and enjoy the worst meatball sub that Jon ever had.

Yeah.

That is awesome.

Did I just steal your Thunder, Jon?

7:03

Did I just jump in?

Dude, it's well, you know what I want.

I don't, I forget what the guy's name is.

Borg.

Borg and Schmorger or something like that.

Anyway, I'll bet he's a super, super cool dude.

I got no issues with it.

I think it's absolutely hilarious.

7:18

I would love to meet the guy and because whether he made it a joke or he was absolutely serious, it doesn't matter the fact that he found time out of his day, you know, to, to do that.

I think it's just, it's great.

7:36

Well, here's my thoughts, though my honest thought on that a it was, it did make me laugh.

Like legitimately, I didn't take offense to it.

I thought it was, I thought it was funny.

But the second part of it is the thing about design is if everybody likes it, nobody loves it.

If you are just middle of the road and it's like, oh, that's nice, that's nice.

7:55

It's like, it's like a Toyota Corolla, whatever.

You know, nobody hates it, nobody loves it.

But if it's a whatever Ram TRX truck, some people can think it's the baddest truck in the world and some people think it's the most ridiculous truck in the world.

8:11

So that's the thing about if somebody's going to love it, somebody's going to hate it.

And so I, I'm not offended that somebody doesn't like it or they're underwhelmed by it.

That's just part of it.

Me personally, it's not the most complex thing I ever made in my life.

I've made things that are far more technically complex and far more refined and far more whatever, but there's just something about this.

8:29

There's something about the sculptural aspect of concrete that we miss out on when we're just casting flat things, countertops and things like that.

And when you visit say a Frank Lloyd Wright house or, or building and they have the textile blocks and they have the different things and you can really see kind of the three-dimensional quality of concrete and how we're really missing out on a lot of things that we do.

8:49

We just don't get an opportunity to to explore them.

For me, that's what this was.

It was an exploration in three-dimensional space, so we don't really get to do a whole lot.

And I loved it.

To me it's it's a cool thing, but to somebody else and I'd be like whatever I've seen better.

9:04

OK, great.

You probably have.

But for me, I like it so.

Well, and maybe he maybe, and, and quite frankly, I didn't go look at this guy's work and it doesn't matter.

Maybe he's done something that is even cooler from his own point of view.

In fact, quite frankly, I'm sure he has because I mean, I think most of us, if we like what we're doing, you know, we're at least for most pieces are some things I'm not the proudest of.

9:28

But, you know, I'm sure he does work that he thinks is is pretty stellar and pretty amazing and quite frankly probably is.

So I mean, that that's cool.

I guess what I'm saying is, you know, there's so many ways these kind of things can go or like, oh, Oh well, yeah.

Well, you know, what have you done?

9:43

And, you know, get all defensive and and as you know, neither one of us are really that way.

I think it's hilarious.

And when I say hilarious, I just mean it's absolutely awesome that this individual, first of all, took the time, you know, went there, legitimately looked at whether it was overwhelmed, underwhelmed, you know, broke down in tears, couldn't stand, you know, how amazing it is.

10:05

Hey, whatever.

I think that is so cool.

Well, I'll, I'll say this.

I'll say this.

When I teach classes, what I tell people to ask for, because it's really easy for everybody to tell you how great it is.

That's really easy.

Sure, sure.

If you show people do you like this, oh, I love it.

10:22

I think it's great.

You know, the feedback that's valuable if you're wanting the feedback is a negative feedback.

And So what I tell people to do and what I've done when I'm working on something is I ask people, you know, what do you think about this?

And inevitably, especially in the United States, because Americans are so they don't want to, they don't want to hurt your feelings.

10:39

They're like, oh, I think it's great.

If you go to Europe, there are a lot less, you know, they're like, oh, this is garbage right out of the gates.

But if you say, OK, but what would you change?

What don't you like about it or what, what, what could be done better or whatever.

That's the feedback that's actually valuable.

10:57

So, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't criticize anybody for giving negative feedback.

And negative feedback is more positive than or more valuable than positive feedback.

But I'm not looking for any feedback.

I just made it.

I like it.

And whether somebody else likes or doesn't like it is irrelevant to me because I didn't make it for anybody, made it for myself and for myself.

11:16

I think it's awesome.

So that's the only thing that.

Well, we've talked about this before and this maybe it just is where we're at from a society point of view or this or that.

But there's no question as long as you know, especially since social media and the various forums, there's a there's a group or maybe it's just a general thing.

11:35

It's the celebration of mediocrity, and you know, as much as that can sound like, oh, what is your no, I mean, we it it, it's very interesting to see with, with, you know, you know, I realize what we do is so subjective.

11:51

It really is.

And some people like it, certain projects, whatever, but the general gist has been to celebrate the the mediocre for fear of offense, you know, and that carries over.

12:06

I I mean, I see it.

So I'm talking life.

I see it with kids.

I see, you know, so many things.

And it's not that you have to be brutally honest to the point of hurting somebody's feelings or be straight up and be a jerk about it.

But, you know, come on, man, We there the the sense of honesty, in my opinion, it's more helpful to anybody, whatever we're talking about.

12:29

Yeah, so.

Other big event Jon was is me and my wife's 9th wedding anniversary.

Last week we went to dinner.

So the big thing wasn't so much the anniversary we went we went to dinner for the first time without the kids in seven years.

12:45

For the last seven years.

We've always had a kid too small to like leave with anybody.

You know, we couldn't just like drop them or we don't feel comfortable.

I know some people do but we don't.

So we we couldn't drop them off at grandma's house or whatever but we finally our youngest is 2 now and our oldest is 7 so we finally were able to to drop them off and go to dinner.

13:07

So we went to a nice dinner, fancy dinner and had a great had a great time but with table.

Did you make sure you brought your cell phone so you just sat there texting each other?

Yeah, I was on TikTok across the table.

I was on TikTok the whole time.

How was your meal?

But, you know, we did have a table next to us, so it was kind of a a fancy place that people go to for special occasions.

13:30

And so I think it's just kind of one of those things.

And so the table next to us older couple and they, you know, they looked over there like, hey, how's it going?

Good.

You guys celebrating something?

We're like, yeah, you know, 9th wedding anniversary.

But more than that, it's or I said wedding anniversary, first of all.

13:47

Yeah, wedding anniversary guys, like how many years?

And I said, it's been 84 years.

But then he's, I said the bigger deal is, you know, it's the first time we've gone out in seven years without the kids.

And so then we end up spending the rest of the dinner talking about our kids and, and showing pictures.

14:06

And they're showing us pictures of the grandkids.

And they're telling us like, you know, you're going to blink and it's going to be gone.

And like, you know, love every moment of it because now they have grandkids.

And so.

Yeah.

So anyways.

But that was the thing that this week's been.

Well, good for you man, and congratulations.

Yeah, 84 years. 84 years.

14:23

Those are steps, man.

The little steps.

Yes, all right.

We already do this podcast.

Let's do it, OK?

I'm sitting there looking at Flint Hills.

These are little baby hills, Yeah.

They're not mountains.

I was going to tell you that when you're saying mountains, you know, even Eureka Springs isn't mountains.

14:40

They were a one time the biggest mountain range.

They were bigger than the Himalayas, the Ozark Mountains, but they're one of the oldest mountain ranges.

And they've just weathered down to, like, more hills than mountains, although they still call it the Ozark Mountains.

But yeah, this is these are rolling hills.

14:57

I like this way.

I actually looked it up, it says Flint Hills.

It's part of tall grass.

Yeah, it looks like it looks like CGI.

I've driven through the Flint Hills and it's rolling grass.

Hills like tall grass.

15:12

Maybe one tree every couple miles, just rolling grass hills.

And it doesn't seem real.

Like you're just, I went to Alaska one time.

It didn't seem real.

It didn't seem real like when I went there, it just was so far beyond anything I'd experienced at that point that it, I didn't have a frame of reference to judge it against and it just didn't seem real.

15:36

Same thing.

I went to Hawaii.

I went to Hawaii.

I went to the to the, to the North Shore of Maui or whatever.

That was Oahu, but I went to the wet side of Maui where it's like tropical rainforest and wild orchids and waterfalls.

It didn't seem real.

You know, living in the desert, you go and you're like in a tropical lagoon and there's wild orchids growing everywhere.

15:56

You're like, this does not seem real.

You know, that is the Flint Hills when you're driving there, it's like, Oh my God, this is incredible.

It just, it doesn't seem real.

But it's all ranches out there.

I want to buy.

I'm not at a place right now in life, but at some point in my life I win the lottery.

I'm going to buy like 1000 acre ranch out there and build a really cool rammed earth, low slung modern house, you know, kind of underneath the hill a little bit.

16:18

So you're tucked in and just have these wide open vistas of of these rolling hills.

I think it'd be incredible.

But yeah, it's not mountains and there's really, there's no towns out there.

I mean, it's just ranches, these massive ranches, which I like.

I personally like that.

Yeah.

But yeah, a.

16:36

Friendly fact, it's only 4% of the original tall grass plurry ecosystem that survives.

Yeah, I believe it.

I believe it.

You ever see that image?

I mean, we're way off track on this podcast.

That's right.

Here's that image of the Prairie grass, the way it used to be, and it went down like 12 feet, the root system.

16:54

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then when they plowed it and everything, now the roots only go down like 6 inches and how they've completely destroyed the true Prairie ecosystem what it once was.

Yep, well, that's why I found just this little fact factoid interesting.

Yep, All right, so.

17:13

So what's that have to do with concrete and the Internet's most underwhelming?

Table OK, we'll start.

We'll start with the question that we've heard a million times, but it's always worth discussing because it's always a question that everybody has.

17:29

I get it.

Jon Packer asked how do you join 2 pieces of melamine together?

Because he needs to cast a long piece.

OK, good question Jon.

How do you how would you join 2 pieces of melamine together to create a long piece?

17:46

Well I the way I have done it is I cut dado bondo sand and the only thing I think I do differently now would you know, spray with some catalyzed varnish.

Yeah.

And are you casting like a cream finish or is this more like your rustic finish?

18:03

No, no, no.

That that for me would be a cream mess finish.

Yeah, well, either I would, you know, lightly acid Wash.

Yeah, See, I've never, I've never once been successful doing that and having it not show in the final piece.

If it's a cream finish, if it was like a DustyCrete finish or something like that, then yeah, you get away with it.

18:23

Or if you can do a deep grind, yeah, you can get away with it.

But for me, anytime you do that, I don't believe you.

I think you're lying right now.

I'm.

Telling you I've done some of the most amazing, overwhelmingly beautiful.

Pieces.

Send me a picture of it because I don't believe you and I don't believe anybody that says they've pulled it off on a cream finish.

18:44

Now, like I said, DustyCrete, I've seen it done because all the texture hides it.

But if it's a smooth as cast cream finish light acid as no no, that's.

What it's going to be acid washed?

Yeah.

I mean, you pull it out of there and it's, it's an undeniable scar where the seam took place.

19:01

Yeah, it's, it's undeniable.

And then you acid wash everything and you know, 99.9% of it blends right in with everything else.

It's just about how you sanded it out and, you know, got everything even and so forth and so on.

Well, maybe my finishing skills aren't what yours are because I always see it.

19:18

So here's my answer Jon Packer.

As far at not you Jon, Jon Packer, As far as joining 2 pieces of melamine together to cast a long piece, I wouldn't do it.

I'd go down to a plastic supplier and I'd get a piece of quarter inch thick polycarbonate.

19:37

They comes in five foot rolls and they usually out on a roll and they can cut up as long as a piece as you want, 10 feet, 12 feet, 20 feet, whatever you want.

So you only need to build a table to support that.

I have a big torsion box that I built for this and then I just roll it out and, and I just let it float.

19:54

I don't glue it down or anything.

I let it float and I build my form on it because once I expand and contract a little bit with the heat of the concrete.

So if you pin it down to the substrate, it can wrinkle when it wants to expand and contract.

So you just want to let it be.

But that's what I would do.

The other option be.

There's two other options.

The other option would be you go to a plywood supplier, like a dedicated plywood distributor, and they can order melamine.

20:16

That's 5 by 12.

So if it fits within that, you can order melamine.

The other thing you can do is you can go to a laminate supplier, somebody that that makes or sells supplies for laminate countertops.

When I was in Phoenix, we had Wilson Art, which is a big national distributor.

20:32

I can go down there and I can get laminate in that size 5 by 12 and they would they would just have it ready for me.

I'd pick it up.

And then I found a company in Phoenix when I lived there that would glue it up for me on particle board.

So I could just call them and say hey guys I need a 5 by 12 laminate piece and.

20:51

Oh, that's nice.

Yeah, when I've done that, the Formica, No, it came in a roll.

And it's a pain in the.

Butt.

Yeah, it's a pain in the butt.

You got to.

Roll on the the contact cement you got to let it dry on both pieces and they do all the little dowel sticks and try to roll it out and not get air bubbles in it.

You know if you do it daily you're it's easy.

21:08

You watch you guys to do it every day and they make it look effortless when you try to do it.

It's.

No, for me, it was an abomination.

Yeah, yeah.

So I found a guy that would do that and it wasn't that expensive.

It was a lot easier than than trying to deal with melamine.

So anyways, but that I would recommend the plastic.

21:23

The plastic's the easiest.

You can probably find it locally and if you don't tear it up, you know, I've used plastic numerous times.

I just got to make each piece progressively smaller because I'm drilling, I'm drilling into it.

I'm using pocket screws to attach my side forms.

So as long as the next piece is a little bit smaller than the last one, I can use it again.

21:42

If the next piece is a little bit smaller than that one, I can use it again because I'm not hitting any of the holes.

So I've used plastic sometimes for 5-6 castings before I finally, you know, got to where it was too small as far as the surface area without any holes in it.

So yeah, I mean it works pretty good.

21:58

Well, here's AI mean I haven't used this so Justin Burd recommended a product called casting skin.

So now I, I have seen some promotions for that particular product, but I haven't personally used it.

It's, you know, it reminds me of like flex form, you know what I mean?

22:17

That kind of stuff that, you know, in theory sounds amazing, but in use you do it once and you find how flexible it is and you move on.

So I'm wondering how this you know if if Justin has used it for in a similar situation, I wonder if something like the casting skin would be similar to like what you're saying about the polycarbonate?

22:39

Yeah, I think anytime you do like any type of thin membrane surface, you could go down and get it like a vinyl adhesive they use for sign making for guys that do vinyl, you know, and you can put that down across your whole table to cover any seams.

22:56

But it doesn't have the thickness.

So it's still going to any any seam there between two pieces, it's still going to translate into the concrete.

It's still going to ghost.

That line is going to ghost.

You'll never get rid of it.

So even if you dado it, you know, bond O it, sand it, there's just something about the thermal aspect of concrete, it's going to slightly ghost that.

23:15

If it's a thin substrate, it's going to slightly ghost that line.

And for me, I can't stand it, can't stand it drives me nuts.

So the quarter inch polycarbonate is thick enough that it'll bridge any of those and the heat from the concrete, even though it makes that substrate move a little bit or whatever, it doesn't ghost into the piece.

23:33

You don't see it.

So that's just my perspective on these thin membranes of people, you know, like whether it's foreskin or whatever it's called or, you know, vinyl backing, whatever.

23:48

I mean do it if you want, but I think when you cast your PCD mold it you're end up seeing a line where there was a joint in your table.

Yeah, that's what I said.

There's no question when I de mold there's because regardless you have, let's say melamine, Melamine.

24:03

And I don't care how you sprayed that area, you know, it's it just is what it is.

You know, they move.

They move.

Yeah, it was after acid washing.

I'm going to say it was acceptable, you know, for me anyway.

Yeah, well, we have different levels of quality, Jon.

24:21

So one man's acceptable, another man's garbage.

That's true.

That's true.

And good enough is the enemy of Great Jon.

Good enough is enemy.

Great.

You say it's good enough, it's not great.

That's true.

So it's like my life.

Just getting by.

24:42

Good enough.

Yeah.

Just well enough.

Yep, Yep, Yep.

It's a little underwhelming.

Well, the world needs more bartenders, Jon.

That'd be a hell of a bartender.

I bet you would.

You'd like to talk?

I do, yeah.

24:58

Talk to everybody, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, you don't have to, you know, trick me into a good conversation with anybody.

It's usually me starting it.

I know.

So I was telling Erin we're at this dinner and these people start talking.

I was like, dude, Jon would love this place.

25:15

When Jon comes here and bring him here because Jon talks to everybody, talks to everybody.

It doesn't matter.

Hey, how's it going?

Oh, I told her I was talking to you one time on speakerphone and you got out of your truck at the dump and started talking to somebody at the landfill.

You were dropping something off the landfill.

25:31

You had me on speakerphone.

I hear Jon.

Hey, how's it going?

I'm like Jon, huh, Jon?

I'm still on the phone, Jon.

And you're just like carrying on to somebody for 5 minutes while I'm still on speakerphone in the truck and I can hear all this going on.

Yeah.

25:46

It doesn't matter where you go at the dump, bro.

If I'm going to the dump, I'm just tossing whatever and getting out of there.

I'm not having conversations.

Oh.

Man, you got to suck in the you know, you got to like be part of the ambiance, the flies, the smell.

You know how many people, how many visitors a day, you know?

26:05

Yeah, you.

Should take a you should take like a folding chair next time just set up shop out there.

Maybe an umbrella, you know?

That's.

Funny.

The Ambassador.

All right, so the next one here is Mathieu Poulin.

He had curling issues not with Maker Mix.

26:23

He had curling issues with Buddy Rhodes.

And before that he had curling issues with Surecrete and he was asking what can you do to overcome it?

So there was a few things, I guess you, as I was talking to you about this earlier and you said you already contacted him and had a conversation, explained to him, you know, what he could do to help mitigate the curling.

26:45

But also you said there was a, a previous thing with sealer that he was having issues with.

And, and I guess he was buying Sealer through Buddy Rhodes corporate, he was buying ICT, but he kept calling them for tech support and whoever he's talking to just didn't know how to use Sealer.

27:01

Yeah.

And finally, they just said call Jon Schuler and he called you and and you sorted it out.

So you want to talk about that?

Which part, the curling or the sealer?

Let's start with the curling.

OK, well, the curling actually, it's here's a I'm actually reading it and you know, it's it's another one situation.

27:22

If you don't ask the right questions, you're not going to get the right answers.

And I was actually reading some of these answers about did you support the piece in the center?

So most people are taking for granted that the piece is sagging, you know, but it's reversed.

27:38

He's seeing the curl.

He's referring to it as con convex instead of concave.

So it tells me that during the casting, the all the outside edges are lifting up off his casting deck or whatever he's using as a, you know, for a mold.

27:54

So then when he finally flips it over, he's got a Dome.

That's what's going on here.

So legitimately, he really does have curl.

Let's see how far do I want to get in this before really pissing people off that these products that he's been using are all referred to as GFRC.

28:12

So that's the first thing him and I had to kind of get over me asking him what he means by GFRC.

Is he just using glass fiber?

And then he told me what mixes he's been using and plain and simple.

So at the end of the day, other than the fact that he needs to step up some of his cure practices, because here's the other one, you know, we've talked about this a lot too.

28:33

And we've also talked about the tools to get whomever passed this ideas.

First thing he hit me on was, well, Jon, you know, I, I let it, I let it cure for 18 hours or I let it go 24 hours.

And he, I'm not going to say he got offended, but if initially I'm like, yeah, bro, that doesn't mean anything to me.

28:52

Like how many hours passed the concrete kicking off?

Did you give it?

Was it 2 hours, 10 hours, 14 hours?

And of course he didn't have an answer to that.

So I just told him, hey, moving forward, if you really want something that's going to help you dial in your cure practices, you know, pick up the the sensor push cubes and explain to him why he uses them And anyway, blah, blah, blah.

29:16

And then just kind of walk through the incremental small nuances of, let's say, things he could improve, like #1 he's putting plastic directly on the concrete.

Well, anybody's doing this long enough.

That's a no, no, Just, you know, don't do it.

29:34

It's just not good practice.

Put a fabric membrane of some sort.

I mean, quilt, batting, polyester, cloth or fleece material, something in between.

Create a tenting effect.

So it's pretty obvious to me in his case, what he's got is a combination of things #1 when it's, when it's curing under whatever condition he's got curing, you know, that the what's ultimately become the back is going to shrink.

30:03

The face is expanding or just not moving at all.

And so he's getting, you know, let's call it cupping.

All the outside edges are lifting up.

So once he finally flips it over, it's shaped like a Dome.

So how do you prevent that?

Well, number one would be cover with a fabric material, then your plastic and then several layers of some kind of insulation.

30:27

I prefer 9 LB moving blankets at least three to four levels.

In this case, he wasn't using any heat and that would be the next thing.

And but then the last step would be all that sounds great, Jon, but how long do I leave it in the mold?

Oh well, we're back to the same thing and that is watch your concrete, see when it kicks off.

30:48

There are some general rules and unless you're using a fast setting concrete like a rapid set or or something along these things, the fairly general I see six hours to as much as 12 hours post cast with the assumption that you're in a 70-75°F shop.

31:11

So if that is and you're thinking you did 18 hours or 24 hours, well, make sure you really add 12 hours to that because that's how long it actually took before the concrete kicked off so that you had a legitimate, you know, blankety blank hours of actual hydration taking place.

31:30

And then that will prevent a lot of his problems.

Hold on, but so what's the biggest issue he's fighting?

As well.

Sorry, go ahead.

I'm, I just want, I just want to hit real quick because that, that's a good question.

Another answer would be how long should let it cure until it's done curing is the answer.

And that's going to be different every day.

31:47

And the temperature, the, the sensors that we talked about, that's a great way to really know.

But the other way is just come in and put your hand underneath and feel the concrete.

Is it still warm?

It's still curing.

Let it let it keep curing, keep checking.

And when you finally get to the point where it's reached ambient temperature and it's covered and it's ambient temperature, that's when it's kind of done with its, you know, the chemical process and you can De-mold it and you're not going to get any benefit from keeping it covered any longer.

32:15

But that's the, the easy way or the, I guess the, the analog way is just keep checking it with your your hand to fill the temperature.

When it gets to room temperature and it's covered, then it's done curing.

But that there's no, you know, there's no, I'd let it go 18 hours.

32:31

Well, that doesn't mean anything.

You know you don't.

That doesn't mean anything.

Yeah, you'll have to go for 40 hours.

That doesn't mean anything.

When it's done curing is.

When it's done curing, that's when it's.

Done well and there's a lot of lot of rules that stepped in that even we learned.

That also depends what you're casting on.

Like per what you're saying, that sounds great unless you're casting on steel tables.

32:50

True, per what we just saw, we came in everything felt room temperature, oh this is done.

It must have really kicked off last night and like Oh no, it hasn't done anything yet and that was you know completely the next day covered up etcetera, etcetera.

33:06

So, you know, there's a lot of things that play into this.

And ultimately, first of all, and I keep telling these tools these, they're not expensive.

So I guess what I'm saying is I could understand anybody balking at the idea that they got to invest $50,000 to have something that tells them what their concrete is doing.

33:27

They're like, ah, you know, geez, that seems so no, they're like 50 bucks.

I mean, they're they're they're so it's a tool that to me, it doesn't make any sense to me that people don't have these at their disposal with what they're doing now and again, don't take me if you're doing a one off OK, I get it.

33:46

And and then follow the general rule.

Cast in some place semi warm, cover it up and then just monitor it with your hand and purr what you're saying till it gets to room temperature.

That's a no brainer.

If anybody wants to do this, create even, you know, whatever a small business out of it, just pick up a, it's a, it's no different than someone telling you, pick up a Sander, you know what I mean?

34:09

Or a grinder or sanding pads or whatever the case may be an IR sensor to tell you what your concrete's doing.

Just pick them up the sensor push.

They're amazing and they will help out dramatically.

So now I'm going to get back to a, a subject that was really touchy not long ago.

34:29

One of the big things he's also fighting in this is each of the mixes that he's been using have outer polymer on board.

And that in of itself, you know, puts a whole new myriad of potential problems that you have to work around.

34:45

But either one of those, they can be worked around by monitoring your cure practices.

So, you know, so I guess I was saying, you know, the two products they used was the Surecrete and the Buddy Rhodes.

And you know, I just don't want to send anybody down a rabbit hole of like that one's junk.

35:01

And this one.

No, no, no, no.

You know, these are cousins, if not, you know, brothers and sisters of themselves.

So, you know, just realize if they're going to have a powder polymer on board, there are little caveats to get around.

And if you monitor your cure practices, that'll take care of 99% of the issues.

35:22

But then again, that brings me full circle back to why he called me and that was sealer related issues specifically having to do with application issues and sealer getting gummy and he couldn't understand it.

It's like it wasn't setting up and etcetera, etcetera.

35:38

And then that went back to, well, you know, what mixer you're using and then, OK, well, here's your issues and how do you get around that?

Which he did.

And the number one, the thing was I just had him incorporate that, the torch as part of his application technique.

35:54

And, and you know, that took away again, 99% of the problems that he was up against.

So which is another interesting one.

I'm going to, you know, Jon, when are you going to get off your soapbox?

The torch and the use of the torch as a tool was sealing.

36:12

You know, there was a time even for me.

Well, I'm going to say the information I was fed by other people was like, oh, Jon, no, no, you know, don't discuss the torch.

It's got to be applied without the torch.

Don't use this.

Don't you know?

And then I started thinking about this as, you know, you and I had this conversation.

36:28

It's like, well, if I told somebody don't use a Sander, you know, oh, hey, whatever you do, don't use an orbital Sander.

You know, that would make no sense to people like, well, how?

Oh yeah, you got to sand it by hand and these kind of things.

So I've now completely embraced the benefit of using proper tooling, even with sealer applications.

36:50

And in this case, you know, again, a very invaluable and inexpensive tool is utilizing the torch as part of a reactive chemistry.

Once he did that, oh, yeah.

I mean, everything fell right into place.

37:07

He sent me pictures of the finished product.

It looked beautiful.

Yeah.

He was having nothing but issues.

And so there you go.

There you go So hey buddy Rhodes tech support if you're listening, tell people to use a torch.

That'll help just.

Use a torch, yeah.

37:22

Yeah, and.

You know what I just found?

Add that to your binder for tech support.

When somebody calls flip to the page on torch, right?

Yeah, Torch well, and and the other thing is recommend, I just recommend, hey, go to the ICT group page on Facebook, wealth of information.

These are all people using the products.

37:40

And so that's what he did.

He saw, you know, various people like Gabe and Simon and, you know, a bunch of people using the product and how they were doing it.

And and that always helps, let's say, legitimize the information.

So it's not just, you know, talking to me.

37:58

So that helped.

That helped him out a lot.

He saw a lot of the nuances each individual was doing and he implemented those things and you know, Wham Bam to the fact that he actually got a hold of smooth on again, just saying, Hey, thanks for sending me my way.

38:14

And it was funny because I don't know, I don't look too deep.

He he got a his answer.

Buck was glad it worked out.

Cool.

So there you go.

Oh, there you go.

OK, So what time is it?

All right, we got time for one more Chafik.

38:30

I think it's he's French.

I think that's how you say it.

He had a question about how to remove stains in the surface of his concrete from casting.

So there's a whole lot of questions that would need to be answered to really get a handle on what's going on here.

38:48

But first of all, it is clean your form extensively before you cast the concrete is a mirror.

So if you have any residue in your form, this last workshop we did a little, a little piece off to the side.

I was just showing to guys how to silicone a form, how to apply silicone to, to roundover.

39:05

And I'm like, yeah, let's just pour concrete in here as well.

And I used my, my spray glass foam cleaner trick for tooling the silicone, which I love.

But one of the issues with that, and this came up previously is if you don't get that glass cleaner residue out, it'll discolor the concrete.

39:22

And we didn't because we just tooled it and then we cast on it, I don't know, an hour later and I didn't clean it my normal way.

And when we de molded it, there's discoloration every place there was glass cleaner on the surface of the form.

So what you do is, first of all, I mean, the the simplest thing to do is just take acetone on a rag and wipe out your entire form.

39:42

That gets any grease, oil, anything like that out, number one.

Number two, I take a magic eraser.

I don't know if they have magic erasers in France.

They probably don't, but I take a magic eraser and I just clean up all the the edges and it gets any little chatter of the silicone like any little rough spots, whatever it gets rid of it.

39:58

It's it's amazing how well it works.

So I clean it with a magic eraser.

It gets any sharpie out, any pencil lines out, anything like that.

It's all gone.

And then the last and final step before mold release.

If I'm using a molder release, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

The last and final step is gel gloss, GEL GLOSS, Gel gloss.

40:19

And this is just a countertop cleaner available here in the United States.

I get the aerosol version.

They have a like a, I don't know a, a cream version that comes into like a little bottle that you squirt.

I don't get that one.

I get the aerosol and you spray it in your form.

You wipe it around with a, a towel.

40:36

You just kind of smear it around wet and you let it dry and then you buff it with a dry towel and it shines up to a beautiful shine.

When I do those things and I cast, my casting comes out beautiful, absolutely beautiful because it gets it.

It gets all the residue out and it puts a nice even clean surface to cast against.

40:53

That's number one.

Number two, I, I didn't get an answer really on was it stained after the fact?

I think it was in the form, but it could have happened after the fact.

But his question was how does he remove it now he hasn't processed it.

So my first bit of advice would be acid etch it, see if that gets rid of it, kind of like what you were saying earlier about, you know, when you join 2 pieces, acid etch it might get rid of it.

41:15

So acid etchit and if you go to kodiakpro.com, we have an FAQ section and we detail how to do the whole acid etch procedure.

I'm not going to bore you with it on the podcast.

I mean, go to kodiakpro.com FAQ and we detail it, how to process the concrete.

If that doesn't work, then you can go to diamonds.

41:31

You could water Polish and I would start with a 200 grit diamond pad and just lightly hone the surface and that will probably get rid of it because it's probably just a surface imperfection.

If that's not the case, then you're going to have to recast.

You know, that's, that's the end of the day.

41:47

You have to recast.

Which brings me, and I'll get back to this in a minute, but brings me to something that I also want to hit was you had a conversation with a guy that is in Canada that is struggling with concrete.

He's using, he's using another product that he can get locally in Canada and you brought, I don't want to name names Jon, so I'm going to start this.

42:06

Over again, I think his name was Ted.

I intentionally left that out of there.

I know what the **** it is.

OK, so I'm going to start this again.

Mark, Mark sometime.

Oh, Jesus.

42:26

You got a.

PhD.

You got a PhD?

I didn't graduate high school and I know not to name names Jon.

All right, So I'm gonna start that again.

So that brings that brings me to a thought I had about you're talking to a guy up in Canada that's dealing with the concrete you can get locally.

42:46

He he's aware of Kodiak.

That's why you guys are talking.

But at the end of the day, he just feels like it's not tenable for him.

The cost imported across the border, but he's recasting everything he's making with the locally available materials.

And that was ultimately the conversation you had with them.

43:02

You, you know, he said, well, it's too expensive.

And your response was, how expensive is it to recast everything you're making?

And he never could.

Yeah.

But the cost of remaking anything, Yeah, even once, all the cost savings of getting it locally, not using the right material are out the window.

43:21

So I would highly encourage you if this is something that you want to do professionally, you want to, you want to sell this to customers, use the best products you can get your hands on.

So that's what I would recommend.

But what would you recommend as far as getting any stains out of the surface?

43:39

I'm actually looking at the picture and I'm sure he did this on purpose, took the picture and but there's marks there's, I mean significant amount of these same markings everywhere on there.

So, you know, first of all, yeah, are these imperfections in the mold or dirty mold?

43:59

Well, in this case, I don't think so, man, because I mean, they're everything from drip mark drop marks to long lines, etcetera.

It almost looks like to me.

Sloppy casting technique I.

Don't know his Yeah, I don't know.

44:14

Yeah.

I don't know his casting technique.

But where I have seen similar would be when someone mixed up like a self consolidating and they were doing a a pour and and there was water or, you know, in other words, a a different consistency, the mix somehow that didn't get blended in properly or, you know, splashed a little water or plasticized or whatever the case may be, didn't get it completely homogenized.

44:41

And then, you know, visually it looks well and then you start pouring and then that's what happened.

You get almost like these little drips and snail trails, you know, throughout the face.

Yeah, where and it, it's just part of what it is.

And if that is what it is, then no amount of acid washing or diamonds is going to take that out.

45:00

That's a pure recast.

And you know, and then just concentrate on your mixing methods a little bit better.

You're saying mixing.

So while you're talking I open up the photo.

The other thing it could be, and I think, I think the mix, it could be not homogenized, as you said, homogeneous, but it could also be that he was dripping when he was casting drip, drip, drip, drip, drip and pouring across the form.

45:22

And I see people do that and I've done that.

And those drips, if they have any time to dry, doesn't take long.

The edge only has to dry a little bit.

It can create these discolorations like that.

That's why when I teach classes, I tell people, pour in one place, let the concrete flow out.

45:38

Don't pour here, pour there, pour, you know, don't pour in five places and let it drip everywhere because all those things will show up in the final piece.

Pour in one spot, let it flow.

If you're pouring down an edge, like, so let's say you're pouring into a, you know, table leg, like with the waterfall edge, you got to be aware that all that concrete running down the edge is going to create imperfections and discoloration.

45:58

So these are things, there's techniques, we've talked about these techniques many times on the podcast, but there's techniques you can do to help alleviate that, to reduce that, to minimize it.

But this could just be a, a case of it could be multiple things.

It could be mixed, not, you know, homogenized, but it'd also be his casting technique as well.

46:15

Maybe he was just being kind of sloppy in the way he was placing the concrete, and that's part of well.

Since there's so much lighter color, I, I'm going to lean towards water, to be honest with you.

It, it almost looks like something that happened there.

You know, different water cement ratio.

Because I get what you're saying about the drips.

46:34

Now, in my experience, and I know that mine isn't everybody's, when I'm doing SCC, you got to walk away from it for a pretty good minute.

Depends on shop conditions.

Because when I was in Arizona I had swamp coolers and they were blowing, you know, 1000 CFM through my shop.

46:56

And it would happen like that, you know, it would happen so fast.

You would pour and you'd go back to the bucket in our scoop and you'd pour over it and that that edge would dry.

And when you'd flipped it over, you could see all these drip marks all through the piece, and it happened so quick.

Yeah, maybe I just don't know.

47:13

I'm looking at these and there are several tones difference in color that makes me think that, you know, somehow water, water cement ratio, you know, in other words, diluted this let's say snail trail and drips out will.

You stop saying snail.

Trail.

Well, I'm thinking like, So what it looks like to me looks like a little snail.

47:35

Trail.

Oh geez.

And look, they're everywhere.

There's even one at the top of the picture and then various more drips and drops throughout the picture.

So, you know, maybe that's it.

He let it go overnight and then some.

You know, bugs and little snails got on it.

47:50

Yeah, we have the the foreskin casting membrane and we have snail trail concrete.

Yep, Yep.

Good gracious.

Well, all right, so that's Chafik.

Hopefully we answered your question, Chafik.

And I hope, I hope I pronounced your name correctly.

48:06

I'm not French.

I'm doing my best.

Yeah, well, I was looking, Yeah.

They they, I just looked.

They actually don't have magic erasers in France.

They don't have a lot.

Of things in France they have maji maji maji erasers.

48:21

Yeah, yeah.

They don't have French cleats in France.

They just have cleats, by the way.

Yeah, who would have known?

Yeah, who would have known?

Yeah, France is a crazy place.

I taught a class in France and it was a great experience.

But it was a interesting experience.

48:37

One thing that surprised me was the restaurants closed down for lunch so the waiters can go home and have lunch with their families.

Yeah.

What am I supposed to do?

I'm hungry.

It's lunchtime.

Oh, we're closed for lunch so the staff can go have lunch.

48:55

Well, that's counterintuitive.

Like shouldn't you be open?

Shifts, yeah.

Oh, it was crazy.

It was crazy, like literally at lunchtime they'd close down so they could go home and have lunch with their families and they'd come back and they'd open back up after lunch for lunch.

Interesting.

49:10

Yeah, interesting.

Silicone over there. 100% silicone isn't like we have in the United States.

It's straight adhesive.

It's like epoxy.

So we got silicone and tubes.

So I kept saying like, we need 100% silicone, not acrylic or anything like that, or siliconized acrylic.

We need 100% silicone.

So we went to hardware store.

49:26

We got 100% silicone.

We applied it to the roundovers.

We could have applied epoxy and epoxy would have been easier to clean than that silicone was.

It hardened and stuck like nothing I've ever seen before.

So even 100% silicone over there is completely different than what we have here or what we consider to be 100% silicone.

49:43

So there was that.

And then the cleats, you know, we did a fireplace, a floating fireplace hearth, and it was floating.

So we used a French cleat system to attach it to the wall.

And I kept, you know, trying to explain to the class, some of the class, some of them from Belgium, one guy was from Iceland, whatever.

50:03

But there was some lost in translation going on.

As far as you know, I'm, I'm describing like a French cleat, French Cleat.

There's a bunch of French people, French Cleat are all like looking at me like I'm crazy and I'm like a cleat and I'm like, oh, a cleat, a cleat, yes, a cleat.

So they don't call it a French cleat.

They have no idea what a French cleat is, but a cleat so so French.

50:22

Fries right?

Yeah, they call them Freedom fries over there.

Yeah, yeah.

So, Yep.

So that that was my experience in France, but it was it was really cool.

And that's actually what got me really interested in some architectural elements, Archers loops for Windows, things like that, that I incorporated into my house that I built.

50:42

But anyways, that's a whole nother thing.

I have a workshop coming up.

RAMMCrete November 16th and 17th Goddard, KS Airport Code is ICTI kid you not, that is the absolute truth.

Airport code ICT Go to concretedesignschool.com to read about this class.

51:00

If this is the rammed earth aesthetic, ultra high performance concrete that we do for thin shell pieces like furniture, sinks, tile, cladding, all that kind of good stuff, it really is the hottest thing with architects and designers.

So if you want to be on the cutting edge of what is in and on trend, you want to be in this class.

51:21

RammCrete, November 16th and 17th, Concrete designschool.com to register.

So there's that.

We were supposed to have Joe on today.

Joe Bates is going to be our guest and we're planning to do a workshop out at his place, I think in February, but we haven't.

Said.

51:36

We haven't set the final dates yet, but we will get those set.

Hopefully.

Joe, he had like some kind of catastrophic this, the skylight in his kitchen was caving in in his house and he ended up having to like completely like RIP the roof off his house and reframe it this week.

So it was a big, big undertaking.

51:53

So he's tied up with that this week.

But hopefully next week he'll be back and we can get him on the podcast.

And hopefully we have that date locked in for the hero's quest we will do at Joe's place in February.

So we have that.

Yeah, come up with something cool.

52:08

Yeah.

So you know, another conversation that I just want to hit real quick, Jon was you and I were talking about Kodiak and what does Kodiak represent?

What do we represent well?

I don't want to steal your Thunder because I spin my wheels constantly trying to think about it.

52:24

You're like, no, this is it.

Well, I told you.

What you're.

Right.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

You told me.

So I'd rather you say it than me.

Steal your Thunder.

Well, I know.

Because you're going to take my answer.

You're the kid at school.

It's looking over my shoulder and then raising your hand and giving the teacher the answer.

Yeah, yeah.

52:40

But yeah, yeah.

This morning I was outside watering the plants.

He called me and we were talking.

You're like, man, what does Kodiak represent?

What do we represent?

I said.

We represent freedom.

Freedom is what we represent.

We all started our businesses for freedom.

That's why I started my business.

52:55

I didn't want to work for somebody.

I wanted to be free.

I wanted to be free to do my own thing.

And so did you, and so did every other person in this industry.

We all want freedom and then we get beholden to the crappy materials and horrible sealers and we become a slave to our industry, to our job, to the craft.

53:13

You end up being in your shop recasting piece after piece after piece, redoing sealer, stripping sealer callbacks from customers, sleepless nights, losing money, not being profitable.

And before you know it, A, you lost all your freedom, you're in your shop non-stop, and B, you're ultimately going to go back to the corporate world and get a job doing something that you hate because you couldn't make this financially viable.

53:37

And So what?

We could be back on someone else's schedule, making your schedule, telling you when your work, what hours were, you know, locked into whatever hourly rate or whatever.

Yeah, you, you, you.

I don't know.

It's it's that world is doesn't work effectively for me.

53:53

Yeah.

So we stand for freedom.

The materials, the techniques we teach in our workshops, the sealers that Jon's developed, these are the tools and resources for you to be free, for you to have the freedom that you initially went into this to have.

54:09

And we're here to help you.

We're here to help you be successful.

We're here to help you.

You know, if you're having issues with what you're doing, call us.

We're going to help you sort it out.

The freedom is what we stand for.

Kodiak Pro represents freedom.

So that's that's my short answer.

That's a good one, man.

Yeah.

So what do you think?

54:25

What do you think it stands for, Jon?

I don't know.

I, you know, what I was thinking about it.

I was just thinking freedom, freedom.

You got to have like the Braveheart blue paint on half your face.

Running, running with a, with a sword, yeah.

54:42

Planting the flag, You're riding your horse, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things for me.

You know, it's definitely a bump up in quality.

Again, if anybody's looking for that and what they're doing, that is definitely a bounce up in durability.

54:59

Yeah.

So, but yeah, ultimately at the end of the day, like where I'm at right now, and I hope people get there a lot faster than I did.

And that is even now I'm doing a podcast and then I'm going to run down to the shop.

I'm going to put in three hours, you know, and then I'm going to spend the afternoon with my son.

55:18

I mean, I hope people get there again 15 years before I did because these products and this kind of support and this kind of, you know, experience, it didn't exist 15 years ago.

55:36

So you know that that to me is what it's about.

And and you know, so for those people that are searching for it, if that's what you want to incorporate into your business, your life philosophy and the whole 9 yards, you know, we are welcome to everybody and to teach us as well.

55:55

Yeah, well, the lowest cost materials you'll ever have, because I was thinking about that guy in Canada that was saying it was too expensive.

The lowest cost materials ever have is 1.

You only have to use once, buy once, try once.

That's the lowest cost.

You might think you're saving a buck, but you're stepping over dollars to pick up Dimes.

56:14

When you're using materials that you have to recast and recast and you have curling and you have all these issues, you're upside down.

The older I get, the more I value things made.

Well, buy once, cry once, buy that thing, spend the money and and enjoy it.

56:31

You know what's that saying?

The the bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.

The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.

That's so true.

You know, you try to save a bit of money and then you end up just hating that thing, whatever it is, whether it's a tool or a sealer or whatever, you know, boots you, you're going, oh, go get the cheap boots.

56:58

And then they just kill your feet and they rub.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, you're just like, wow.

My God, so you know, invest in yourself, invest in your business, invest in your reputation.

Well, the biggest.

Above you know realize that you are worth the investment.

57:15

Yeah, and your customers value quality.

For all of us too, yeah, is is realize for each of us, you really are worth the investment.

Favorite things, Jon, Let's wrap it up with favorite things.

What's your favorite thing this week?

Well.

I'm going to go back to I told, I think I told you about that mushroom coffee, right?

57:37

I'm telling you, man, I, I recommend that to anybody.

Give it a shot.

There's different versions of it, but I enjoy it.

It doesn't Now number one, I I can't do caffeinated coffee so I do all decaf, but I enjoy the stuff it it people should give it a shot.

57:52

Decaf coffee?

I mean, that's like non alcoholic beer.

What's the point, Jon?

Well for me and so I've been told that I'm high energy and a little bit of addi don't believe it though.

I think it's all bullshit.

So the caffeinated coffee drags me down.

58:12

Like, literally.

Yeah.

I mean, it feels like I just, you know, took something and makes me sleepy.

Crazy.

That's true.

Absolutely.

It's insane.

And that's probably why.

Yeah, I'm insane.

You're insane.

58:27

My favorite thing and I'm wearing them right now and I got them for this camping trip, but I've been wearing them and I'm I think like dude, why didn't I find these before I went to Walmart?

I need to get some long pants to wear on this camping trip, right?

And I want I want to go get besides jeans because it's going to be hot, you know, during the day, but then cool off at night.

58:45

I thought I was going to get some pants.

I just went to Walmart and Wrangler has outdoor pants and they're like, you know, like AI don't know like some type of thinner material, but I went there.

They're so I found them on their website.

They're 269827 bucks a pair, super cheap, super comfortable.

59:06

They look good, they feel good.

You don't get hot.

I'm telling you man, these pants.

I wish I'd have found these pants.

Kind of like you're saying about the good advice.

Well.

They all like the huggy pants, so they hug hug you.

No, no.

They're looser.

They're the beginning of this podcast, and who you who ended up liking you at the retreat is starting to make a little more sense.

59:28

Now these are these are looser Jon, these are kind of like yoga pants in a way, but not but they're super comfortable, super comfortable.

I've been wearing them in my shop incredible for 27 bucks.

So if you're like me and you like being comfortable at work, you know, I can't wear sweatpants to work.

59:45

I'd look like a, you know, whatever.

So I can't come in in my sweats.

But these are these are the equivalent of wearing sweatpants to work and they look good.

So Wrangler, they're 2698 Wrangler men's outdoor all terrain cargo pant with UPF 50 plus protection is the description on the Walmart website.

1:00:02

But they have them in the store.

So go to the store.

Go back to the men's section and they're awesome, man.

They're awesome, $26.98.

Yeah, winter's coming up.

It's start.

Time to put start wearing pants again.

Well, I mean, I'm going to wear these in my shop in the winter because my shop's air conditioned, but these would not be really winter pants because these are more like a summer, spring, fall pant.

1:00:21

But come winter.

No, that's all I meant.

I just meant, you know, this time of year I wear shorts and pajamas to the shop.

So I bet you do.

You wear robe, Yeah.

Looking good You you wear what?

Was that thing called the silk thing the Japanese?

1:00:37

What am I thinking of?

Komodo.

Yeah, that's what you wear to.

Yeah, yeah, damn right.

People walk in like, oh, pardon me, pardon me.

No, come on in.

I'm just working.

Yeah, yeah.

Let me tie it back up.

Oh.

Gosh, yeah.

1:00:57

But yeah, no, it's time I got to I, I mean, I'm literally have to start looking for some, you know, more pants related stuff for working.

Yeah.

All right, Jon.

Well, on that note, we want to wrap it up.

Wrap it up.

All right, buddy, until next week.

Adios.

1:01:13

Adios.