In this episode of The Concrete Podcast, we’re unpacking the small details that lead to big wins in the world of concrete design. From weighing every material—yes, even bagged goods—to mastering the art of lowering the sheen on a countertop, we’ll guide you through strategies that ensure precision and elevate your craft.

We also dig into the essentials of fiberglass rebar placement, where to use it, and why it matters, plus tips for attaching undermount stainless steel sinks with confidence. To top it all off, we share a story about an aggravating intern who taught us the hard way about trusting your gut. If you’ve ever second-guessed a decision or wondered how to get things just right, this one’s for you.

Your next project is calling—are you ready to answer?

Upcoming Workshops:

• Basics Fundamentals Workshop: February 1st–2nd in Goddard, KS. Register now at Concrete Design School!
  

#ConcreteCrafting #ProblemSolvingTips #GrowthMindset #PrecisionMatters #concretecountertops #FiberglassRebar #DIYSuccess #CraftsmanshipJourney #LearnAndLevelUp

 

TRANSCRIPT

0:16

Hello Jon Schuler.

Hello, Brandon Gore.

Well, we're not in Vegas, Jon.

We're not in Vegas.

Vegas would know if we were in Vegas, but we're not in Vegas.

I'm in Wichita.

You're in California.

I'm OK not going to Vegas.

Yeah, I mean, I felt crappy.

0:32

I'm starting to feel much, much better.

But yeah, I'm OK not going to Vegas.

Yeah, I was looking at flights up until yesterday.

I was looking at flights.

But then I talked to, you know, I've seen a lot of my friends on social media post in a world of concrete.

And I'm feeling left out.

And I'm feeling like, what am I doing here?

0:48

I need to be there.

And my wife's like, go, go, go, you know, you should go.

And I'm like, yeah.

But I reached out to Randy Klassen and he said for him, it's kind of depressing because he's been going for 20 years.

You know, I used to go every year 20 years ago.

I'd go when I lived in Phoenix, I'd go every year.

1:06

And he said it's all the same.

Like what?

What's depressing for him is when he walks around the decorative concrete area outside and it's all the same people doing all the same things they're doing 20 years ago.

And he just, he's like, there's no.

Just 20 years older.

1:21

Yeah, just 20 years older.

But there's no innovation.

There's nothing inspirational, you know?

I mean, I guess if you're new to concrete, you go, you're like, oh wow, this is cool.

But if you've been seeing the same thing every year for 20 years, you're like, come on guys, let's let's pick it up, let's do something, you know, let's do something new.

So from that perspective, I guess I, I don't feel bad about not being here this year, but next year we'll try to go.

1:41

The other thing was the cost.

You know, Vegas, when I used to go and used to go, we would stay at the Hard Rock and Hard Rock back then it was like 100 bucks a night.

Yeah, it was nice.

Yeah, it was a cool hotel.

Pink Taco, Mr. Lucky's, all these cool restaurants there, and it was just a fun place.

1:58

It was a fun vibe.

It's a fun hotel.

And they'd get you in a casino, you know, so the hotel rooms weren't crazy.

They they're planning on used gambling some money away and but when I checked this time so virgin bought Hard Rock.

The cheapest room they have is 550.

That's a dog friendly room and if you'd want a non dog friendly room it's 7:50 to 8:50 per night.

2:21

I identify as a dog.

For 5:50, I don't identify the dog.

I mean, dude at a nice like luxurious resort, OK, yeah, 550 night.

I get it.

That makes sense.

But this is a casino hotel.

You know, you're going upstairs to crash after you've drank too much and you've been like, you know, over stimulated with, you know, you're not going up to like have a luxurious vacation.

2:48

You're going up to sleep and then get up in the morning and start again.

I have a hard time with that.

So next year I might go ahead and book our accommodations like this week for next year at a hotel close to the Convention Center where we can.

Walk.

So I got to get a dog?

Is that what you're telling me?

Well, I think we'll stay at a different hotel, but the other thing I want to do, Jon, is book tickets for the Sphere.

3:09

So yeah.

I want to see that thing.

Yeah, that's kind of, I mean, we saw it when we went out to Jay's trap.

But hang on.

I don't want to get off this because now I'm going to go.

I actually really wanted to go to Vegas.

The my favorite part of Vegas, meaning world of concrete and all that, is seeing everybody.

3:27

So, you know, we've had some wild times since starting Kodiak and I'd love.

I actually texted, you know, to go out to lunch and dinner with Tom Fischer, you know, hook up with.

Oh, shoot, I can't remember that old.

3:42

Anyway, Girard.

Yeah, dude, we were.

It was going to be great.

It was going to be like, you know, happy to see you.

Tour.

Are you talking about Jeff Girard?

Yeah.

Dude, wouldn't that be awesome?

I'm.

Going to tell the story, I'll tell it on the podcast because it's a true story.

It's a funny story.

3:58

So this was like 2006, I would guess maybe 2007.

We were a bunch of us from this industry were in Vegas for World of Concrete.

We went out to eat as a group.

I want to feel like we were at like Pink Taco at Hard Rock.

I think we're there.

4:14

Yeah, I know.

We I know what we were filled the whole room.

Yeah, and there's multiple tables.

And I was sitting with Jeff Girard and Lane Mangum from CCI back then, and they didn't know that you and I were friends.

And so I'm sitting there talking to him, and they're like, Jon Schuler doesn't know anything about concrete.

4:33

He's a fake.

He's a phony.

He.

I'm like, really?

Huh.

Huh.

That's interesting.

Hey, hold on a second.

They didn't know you were sitting at the table behind us.

I turn around, tap you on the shoulder.

Hey, Jon, Jeff and Lane want to tell you something?

You just seen looks on their faces.

That was a funny moment.

4:51

Oh man, and and.

All sincerity it, you know, maybe next year, I don't know, do something.

I, I would love to see everybody put their and maybe they've already been put down.

It meaning put your guards down.

Come on, guys.

You know, maybe now that Kodiak exists and we're, we're doing great and and people are understanding what not just the materials are, but the entire mantra and ethos of what Kodiak represents.

5:17

You know, maybe at this point more people, meaning, you know, less people be so angry about it and and we can all get along.

Well, and we're only getting older.

I mean, at what point do we just stop with the shenanigans?

Stop.

Yeah, I was looking last night.

I was looking for photos.

Remember when I threw that party at my shop in 2010 in Phoenix?

5:35

Yeah, I was looking for photos that for some reason, they're gone off my Facebook.

I never deleted them, but the album, album is empty.

I was like, so I went on my computer.

I was looking through my files there.

Can't find the photos.

I have no idea why the photos are gone, but going through that, I started finding all these old photos from 2004, 2005, 2006, of concrete stuff, stuff we made, workshops I'd held, things like that.

6:00

And I was so young.

And everybody in the photos who I still know today, we're so young.

We were.

Kids, Yeah.

You know, two decades go by like that.

It's gone by, Yeah.

And so, you know, at some point we're all going to grow up and stop with the stupidity because it's stupid.

6:18

It's we just make concrete.

I think we need to put this in perspective.

We make concrete sinks and countertops.

Come on now.

You know, I heard some guy on Facebook that does this, makes concrete sinks, countertops, but he's like, you don't understand how hard this is.

This is the hardest industry.

6:33

You gotta bleed.

You gotta want shut up, dude.

We're making sinks and countertops.

Like get over it.

We're not in Afghanistan, you know, right.

Climbing through the mountains, sniping people like, come on, We're not fighting fires.

We're not.

We're not doing any of that stuff.

We're making sinks and countertops.

6:49

Let's put in perspective.

Let's, let's.

We're not.

We're not.

That thing with the.

We're not that important.

We're not that.

No, we're not, at the end of the day.

Yeah, except to ourselves.

I remember watching this whole interview with Denzel Washington and a bunch of other actors and actresses, and a few of them were just like, oh, you know, and how hard it is and da, da, da, da.

7:09

He stepped back.

Like, you got to be kidding me.

We make movies.

We got to trailer that.

We sit in, we get pampered.

Like really?

Like, how?

At what point did you think this was difficult, you know?

7:25

Anyway, you know, it's just perspective.

I had I had a taste of that for a minute of that side of of the industry of life, Hollywood.

So I filmed a TV show and it was the best experience.

7:41

I had a trailer.

I would show up.

Good morning.

How are you doing?

Great, Great, great.

Hey, can I get a coffee?

Absolutely.

Can I get a a smoothie like a green smoothie?

For sure.

Can I get a acai bowl?

You got it like whatever you wanted.

There was like PA’s that would run out and get it and bring it back.

7:57

It was amazing.

It was amazing.

Anybody thinks that?

Like if anybody thinks Hollywood is hard, you have no idea.

Like how amazing that life is.

I'm sad we didn't go to season 2.

Not necessarily because I want to be on TV, but because I miss out on the smoothies and the coffees and the açaí bowls.

8:14

Those were like the best perk ever.

So anyways, it's a, it's a very plush, cushy life if you're in that world.

So anyways, well, we want to get going on this podcast.

Yeah, what's the nits and grits today, my friend?

8:30

The nits and grits.

Well, first of all, Dusty Baker posted on the Kodiak Pro discussion page.

He's having issues, so he was mixing up concrete.

I'm going to do it in Dusty's voice.

I'm going to do my impersonation in Dusty.

You ready?

Hey guys, I don't know what's going on here, but I got bubbles in my concrete.

8:50

It's sticking there every time.

Oh, he doesn't use that high pitch.

I know what's up my.

Yeah, I'm just, I'm just playing anyways.

A little swing to it.

He's got a swing to it.

I love it.

I grew up in, I grew up in Alabama, so I actually had a more Southern accent than Dusty when I was a kid.

9:06

Like I, Oh my God, I fought to get rid of it.

That's the story.

Well, I'll tell you right now because it's quick, but when I moved to Phoenix when I was 19 or 20, I moved to Phoenix from, from the South.

I'd grown up in the South, Arkansas and Alabama.

Dude, man, I sound like this and I talk like that because that's why I grew up this everybody when I grew up, everybody around me, that's how they sound, right?

9:28

So when I moved to Phoenix, I got a job in hotel industry and I worked my way up to sales manager and then director of sales for a a big hotel chain.

And I felt I felt embarrassed by the way I sounded.

I didn't know that it was actually helpful.

It was disarming the people because, you know, they're so used to salesman that are like slick talking used car salesman trying to get them to sign agreements and stuff, you know, Hey Bobby, how's it going?

9:51

Hey, good to see you.

And I'm just like, hey guys, how's it going, man?

Oh, oh, you have a nice flat.

It was disarming, but I didn't know that.

I didn't know that it was actually beneficial to what I was doing.

So I tried my hardest to get rid of my accent.

I tried and I tried and over time I did.

10:09

I got rid of it but.

No, until you go back to the South.

Now they think you.

Have an accent, dude.

It's funny how it picks right back up and I go back there.

It just there's a part of my brain or that's still there and I get around.

I'd start right back, but you know, whatever.

But that being said, I love Dusty and so I'm I'm not making fun of dusty.

10:28

But anyways, Dusty said he's having it was wasn't released in air.

It was, it was sticky and you know, air was holding.

So he posted it and you know, you, you responded back like, well, nothing's changed, the mix is the same.

You know, there's been 0 alterations to the mix.

10:45

Everything is exactly the same.

So right, you know, send us the samples.

No things are going.

Great man, raw materials, the whole 9 yards.

You know, the post COVID, the whole materials industry has calmed down.

It's, it's been great.

It's been very stable.

Yeah.

But you said send us a sample, we'll do an evaluation.

11:02

I mean, it's not.

This is a a a mix made by humans, so human error is a possibility.

Sure.

Yeah, so it's not beyond comprehension that one batch they left an ingredient out for, you know, whatever.

Too much.

Or not that that not that it happens, but it could happen.

11:19

It could happen.

My truck could get hit by a meteorite.

Right now I'm looking at a meteorite could come out of the sky or a SpaceX satellite or something.

There's a chance that could happen.

There's a chance, sure.

So anyways, there's a chance it could happen.

So you know, but we haven't heard from anybody else having any problems.

So you're just like, well, it's in the sample.

11:36

We'll, you know, have it checked and make sure as.

Much due diligence on my end as or our end as we can.

Yeah, but then, and I talked to you about it, you're like, dude, I don't, you know, we'll just check it.

But no, not, you know, there there's no reason why you should be having a problem.

So you you went down to your shop and you're working and then it came to you.

11:54

Yeah, it dawned on me.

Yep, Yep.

And what was it, Jon?

Well, it's, it's funny, it goes back to that whole, I've said this many times in many podcasts, I believe with all of us, regardless what you're doing, if you don't ask the right questions, you never get the right answers.

And I remember during our conversation, meaning mine and Dusty's and it, it went like literally in and out in one ear, out the other for me because I was focused on the materials themselves.

12:23

But what he said was like in a quick part of it, he's like, yeah, something else, man.

I end up with like 50 LB extra and I don't understand that.

And I'm like, yeah, that doesn't make any sense.

He's like, yeah.

And the, and the last one too, that was real tight like this.

12:39

Yeah.

I ended up with right around 50-60 LB extra.

I'm like, oh man, there can't be.

He's like, yeah, So and that's when it finally dawned on me.

Just when I was out doing something, I'm like, wait a minute, how could you have 50 LB extra?

12:55

That doesn't make any sense.

You know, it, it end up, you know, if volume increased because of air, you wouldn't have a SO anyway, that's when I called him back and said, hey, do me a favor man.

In fact, here's the thing.

I actually had him like, hey, this is what I need you to do so at least I could quickly diagnose without having to be there on site, you know, pull 10 lbs.

13:17

I want you to mix it up in, in a 5 gallon bucket.

I want you to mix it this way and maybe have 3 or 4 buckets ready to go.

And I'm going to have you do some specific things so that I can diagnose what, where and why and at least get you back on the right track.

So when I called back, he had already done that and said, yeah, man, I'm ready to go.

13:35

And I'm like, no, no, no, don't I go, let's stop right there.

This is what I want you to do.

Go pull a bag off the pallet.

I want you to weigh the bag.

He's like, no, why would I do that?

Not just do me a favor, go do that.

And I go I, I believe I'm 99% convinced what's happening to you right now is the bags are overloaded and you're not weighing your bags.

13:59

He's like, no, I don't.

I don't weigh the bags.

And I said, yeah, well, remember, Jess Warren called us about that.

Yeah, he got like an.

Extra 10 bags on a pallet because they were too heavy.

This.

Was some time ago and Jess is one of those people which we'll get to in a moment that yeah, he weighs each and every bag.

14:15

Yeah I do the same thing in my shop.

I weigh each and every bag, you know, prior to loading the mixer, which again, I'll talk to in a second.

But sure enough, he pulled it up.

He's like, Oh yeah, man, it's this is 54 lbs.

And I'm like, OK, go pull another one.

14:34

This one's 55 1/2.

I go great, pull another one.

And this is me on the phone with him.

He's like, oh man, I'm like, yeah, I said So what is?

And then I asked him.

I said so and you're doing your what?

We're calling a batch.

How many bags do you put in a batch?

He goes 6.

14:51

So technically, out of those 6 bags, if they're all running 4 lbs heavy or 5 lbs heavy anywhere in their zone, you've really been adding 7 bags worth of material.

Or an additional 30 to 40 lbs.

Yeah.

And I'm like, oh, he's like, yeah.

15:07

And I said, and when you do that, that extra, let's say 25 total pounds of material that you weren't counting on, now you were 6 lbs light in water and all plasticizer light and pigment light.

15:23

He's like, yeah, that's why my color wasn't matching up and etcetera, etcetera.

So anyway, where we're going with this is you guys do diligence.

Anybody listening in my shop, this is what I do.

I have what I call a temper bucket.

And in that 5 gallon bucket it's usually has, you know, whatever 20 lbs of materials in it kind of thing.

15:45

I have that set.

I call it a temper bucket.

Any time I cast, whether it's again, let's say it's a three bag cast, 150 lbs of dry materials, 200, whatever the case might be, I always quickly pull the bags one at a time, throw them on the scale and with a black Sharpie pin right down the weight.

16:05

They're usually not very far off.

And I think we've talked about this in the past.

These are, they're loaded by hand.

You know, the mix comes out into a big hopper, out of the shear blender into this huge hopper.

And then to some extent when it comes down to fill the bags, there is, you know, a human element to this.

16:27

And in this case, yeah, that that these bags were getting loaded heavy.

So always want to do that and then use your temper bucket to either add mix or pull mix to make sure that you're actually hitting the numbers you want so that your water spot on, your plasticizer spot on, etcetera, etcetera.

16:48

Yeah, I've never seen a a light bag, but I've seen plenty of heavy bags.

And that's true with anything, whether it's sand or Portland cement.

Back when I used to buy Portland from Lowe's, they were 94 lbs to 100 lbs.

They were all over the place.

17:04

So if you just cut one open and dump it in, you could be, you could be off.

So you always want to weigh it.

That being said, I'm guilty of not weighing it because I've weighed enough of them and they're within a pound or two that I'm just like, whatever is close enough, you know, as far as the margins go.

But that being said, it's a good thing to weigh.

17:20

I'm going to start weighing and it doesn't hurt anything.

It doesn't hurt anything just to have that dialed, you know?

Yeah.

Just take a couple minutes.

Again, it doesn't take very long.

Just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, yeah.

Yeah, Jess reached out to us six months or a year ago because he weighs his bags and he's like, guys, these are all heavy.

17:38

I feel like I, I should pay you for the additional mix or like, yeah, yeah, we, we're not going to charge you for it, but we need, we need to reach out and, and make sure they, they start, you know, getting a little bit more close because we're paying for that mix.

So, you know, like Dusty got that additional 7 bags on his pallet essentially that we paid for.

17:57

So, yeah.

So that's definitely good practice.

Yeah.

There's no, there's no automatic equipment that does the filling of bags.

It's always a human thing.

They set the bag up, it shoots it in, and, you know, they have a scale and they stop it, but there's still something to shoot slides in there, you know.

18:13

So it's a, it's a dark art to get them exact.

They're never exact, correct.

Yeah.

Yep.

So you said you want to talk about loading.

You were going to talk about loading and mixing.

What was that?

Yeah, you said loading and.

18:29

Mixing.

I'll talk about that in a minute.

What was that about?

Oh, just the I get yeah, yeah, just just that idea that have A to the other side of that I think is great practice is always have a 5 gallon bucket of materials again, let's call it your extra maker mix.

18:47

You see what I'm saying you I always on every cast have that little 5 gallon bucket with anywhere the buckets filled with anywhere to 10 pounds, 25 lbs of actual maker mix.

So after I get done weighing my bags, you know I can easily pull a Little Mix out of my temper, mix if I'm overall 2 lbs light and mix over 10 bags or vice versa.

19:12

I just cut open a bag, pull that 2 LB scoop in, throw it into that 25 LB bucket and use it for next time.

That's how I deal with it in my shop.

Got you.

That makes sense.

Yeah, it's just, to me, it's a simple way.

I'm one of those that like and have it in a good bucket because I don't, you know, let's go the other direction.

19:32

Hey, you know, a bag was loaded heavy.

Well, where are you scooping that out and putting it?

Well, OK, I'll back calculate that into my mix.

I'll add the extra water, I'll add the extra pigment, I'll add the extra plasticizer.

Well, now I got to throw it away, you know, what am I doing with that?

19:51

So I'd rather have a place I could do it rather than a bag that I cut open and then set it back over on my pallet of materials.

And now that I cut it open, you know, I've just really opened up all the mix to the elements and I need to be used up pretty quick.

20:06

Cool Jonnie Blout, He posted photos of his project.

I encourage anybody that's interested to go to the Kodiak Pro discussion page on Facebook.

Came out awesome.

Came out awesome.

I was blown away with how good his pieces came out that he made these countertops island.

20:25

Tops was that that was a 1300 lbs.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Came out phenomenal.

He put drawers on top of unsealed concrete, right?

So he posted a photo of his concrete countertops and he has these cabinet drawers, not underwear.

20:43

I don't call underwear drawers.

Cabinet drawers on top of the countertop and he hasn't sealed them yet.

And I commented, dude, it looks great.

But get those drawers off the concrete until you seal it.

Don't put a coke can, don't put a water bottle, don't touch it with, you know, with bare hands, because oil in your hands can soak in.

21:04

It's happened to me before you seal it, don't even look at it.

Don't even look at it.

You know, you want to just completely protect it until it's sealed.

And he's like, well, I'm putting cabinets on top of that, so I don't really care.

But it's just a habit thing.

What I told him it's just it's a habit.

Like if you get in a habit of sometimes you do it, sometimes you don't, at some point you're going to mess up, you're going to put something on it, you're going to have to redo that piece.

21:27

So that's  one bit of advice.

The other thing was he asked, and I thought it was a good question.

He was casting an eye on top and he wanted to put fiberglass rebar in it.

And he was asking about like, you know, how close to the surface can I put it?

21:43

How close to the edge can I put it?

But then he posted a drawing of the piece and what it is.

It's a, it's a big rectangular island that has drop down edge.

So that creates a beam essentially.

You know, the concrete's one inch thick, but then it has a drop down edge, it's 3 inches thick.

And then he has those, those vertical beams running across and then lengthwise down the middle.

22:03

And that adds a tremendous amount of strength.

Those vertical elements, those fins, those beams, whatever you call them, Karmody calls them strength channels, whatever you want to call them.

But those thickened areas create a tremendous amount of strength.

And I responded back like dude, personally I would not put any rebar in that.

22:19

You have plenty of strength to those drop down edges and those vertical fins.

I'd say AR glass fiber, you're fine.

What are your thoughts?

Well, see, I'm I go the other direction, man.

I'm I'm one of those cheap insurance is still looking at things as cheap insurance.

22:36

So for me, I would have done, I would have taken each one of those long ones and just turn them into bond beams.

So two pieces of fiberglass rebar this the small like you know, the 3/8 one would go since this is a precast piece, one one piece would go near the face and one piece would go near the back.

23:00

And by having those two pieces in there creating a basically a bond beam would overall strengthen that thing tremendously.

Now, does it need it?

Well, no.

We only know it needs it when it does, right.

23:17

And that's a that's a not a very good moment.

So for me, again, cheap insurance based on 6 pieces of glass rebar done.

Yeah.

I mean, that's, that's my comfort zone.

Super simple.

Done.

Yeah.

I get it for me because I've done enough pieces and I've never had an issue and I'll talk about that in a minute because there's another question on here that came up where that again applies to my perspective on it.

23:43

I've never had an issue, so I wouldn't do it.

I have had issues with rebar ghosting, even if in the trick with any type of rebar is you suspend it ahead of time and you pour the concrete around it.

You don't wiggle it down into it, wiggle it down into it.

You're definitely going to ghost.

But even if it's suspended, it can still ghost because it cures a little bit differently right there.

24:02

There's a just a slight difference.

Not so much with glass though.

Steel.

Yes, I've seen it.

I've seen even the glass, I've seen it now it's subtle, but I see it.

And if it's linear, then it stands out right.

So if it's this long line, it's just a slightly different shade.

It drives me nuts and I've had it happen.

So that's why I I weigh the the benefits and the detriments to it.

24:21

And for me, I wouldn't do it.

That being said, had this been so this countertop, the drawing he posted, it's sitting all on the cabinet.

It's a 0 overhang so it's flush with the cabinet edge.

Had it had an overhang for like a seating area at the bar, 12 inch overhang, 14 overhang, whatever.

24:38

And that instance I would have rebar running off in the direction of the overhang to prevent it from sagging over time.

AR glass fiber is extremely ductal.

Chop strand is extremely ductal and so it'll be flat when you put it on there.

But then in a year when you put a level across it, that overhang will have trooped an eighth of an inch.

24:58

You know, you check it in two or three years, maybe it's down to 1/4 of an inch droop at that point.

I have a table at my house outdoors that has, I don't know, like 20 inch overhangs all the way around and it's probably drooped 1/2 inch on every corner over 15 years.

But it's done it, you know, because it's very ductile, just slowly moving.

25:15

Now, had I put a piece of rebar, glass fiber rebar at the bottom of the slab of the finished piece or even the top, doesn't matter.

But at the bottom, it would just prevent the creep because it's not, I'm not using it for strength.

I'm just giving it some resistance to wanting to slowly droop down.

25:33

That's for me the benefit of something like that.

But he doesn't have that instance there.

So I'm like, for me, it doesn't provide that much benefit.

It's pretty darn strong.

I would skip it.

But you know, like you said, it's cheap insurance.

So if you're worried about it, do it.

You're not going to you're not going to regret it.

25:50

So that brings me to my next thing that was on here.

Let me see if I can find it.

But somebody asked about what's that?

About regrets, we won't regret it.

That being said.

There's a question on here, somebody posted a question about setting, I think it was Jonnie again about attaching an undermount stainless steel sync.

26:11

What, how, how do I attach it?

And there was a lot of responses about using physical attachment methods.

So there's clips that are made, there's wire harnesses.

It's called like a.

Epoxy clips.

Yeah, the Hercules system or whatever it's called, I've used them.

26:26

I've used all the systems.

I've used the wire ones that you attach to the cabinet.

Sling.

Yeah, you attach it to the cabinets ahead of time, then you put the the countertop, then you put the sink under, and then you tighten this little clip and it pulls the wires together and it lifts the sink up.

I've used all of them, but a long time ago, my buddy Sam Graham, I've talked about him on a podcast before, but he owned a huge granite company and salt surface company in Phoenix.

26:49

He's like, dude, we just use 100% silicone.

And they, they were doing, you know, 50 to 100 kitchens a week.

They're doing entire subdivisions, all the kitchens and they were setting sinks, undermount sinks.

And every one of these houses, whether it's the solid surface like Corian or to granite and they would just 100% silicone.

27:06

They use a clamp.

They go through the whole, they pull it up, you know, they put like a 2 by 4 across the opening.

They pulled up snug.

They tape everything ahead of time.

It squeezes out, they tool the silicone, they peel the tape.

They let it set overnight.

Next day they come back, they they pop the clamps off.

He's like that's we, we do it.

27:22

I mean, they were doing thousands of kitchens a year, no problems.

So that's what I started doing and I've never had an issue.

Me personally, I've never had an issue.

I have used the mechanical systems, no issues with that.

They're just a lot more labor intensive, finicky.

27:37

You have to preset the clips like Dusty was putting stuff in ahead of time, or you have to drill after the fact and put them or you have to do a slot.

Some of them are like a slot.

You take a grinder and you put a slot in and you do it.

Yep, there.

You know there's all different types, but that's something you after the fact.

I've done.

I've done well over 100 sinks under mount with just silicone over the years and I've never had a single callback.

28:00

I've done it in my own homes.

I've done it in my shop.

We had a display in my old shop.

I had an undermount stainless sink and it was a really nice sink, an LK stainless steel sink.

And so when I was moving, I wanted to take the sink with me, but, you know, toss the display that I'd made.

We tried to get it out.

28:16

So I had, you know, we first we pushed on it.

Then Sean was working for me.

Sean got up and stood in it.

Sean probably weighed 200 lbs.

Nothing, right.

So then I'm like getting shims.

I'm trying to like work the shims from the underside between the concrete and the sink and I'm getting them in, but the silicone's just stretching.

28:32

It's not letting go.

And Sean standing in the sink, it's not going anywhere 200 lbs.

And you know, so I'm, I'm working shims all around.

And then finally I'd get like a long one of those knives that are like retracting, but the long ones, right?

Like little utility knives, but they you can push them out like 3 inches.

28:50

I'd get one of those and then go around and cut all the silicone before we could finally get it to come off.

And that'd been there for years.

My house right now, the countertops are probably 2 years old now. 2 1/2 years, man.

At any given time there's probably 50 lbs of dishes in that thing.

29:05

Pots and pans, you know, like we never seem to be 100% caught up on that.

So when I go in the kitchen, there's just like plate stacked in there and stuff.

Nothing, nothing.

It's and it's a huge sink.

It's a huge sink and it's loaded up.

So I'm saying my experience and it's just my experience.

I've never had a problem.

29:20

Now, that being said, I think Phil Courtney said he had one release it at one point.

Somebody else chimed in.

You know never to use just adhesive.

Yeah, but Phil has all his stuff sliding around on decks and stuff I don't.

Know, I don't know.

29:36

What I said is I think it comes down to prep because what I always do is I clean the the rim of the stainless sink, really go to the acetone because from the factory there's going to be oil on there.

When they manufacture that stainless steel sink, they, you know, those big presses and stuff, it's going to have oil.

So I get all that residue off.

29:53

I think that's number one.

I don't know if a lot of people are doing that.

The second thing is before I flip the concrete, I always take a grinder and just lightly hit around that opening just to get any of that, that top cream layer that rises on the backside.

I want it to be opened up so the adhesive really bonds to the concrete, you know, not that like little thin cream layer.

30:13

So, yeah, I think if you didn't do the, you didn't remove the cream around the the backside around the sink and you don't clean the rim, Yeah, it's just not going to bond well.

And at some point it released.

Maybe that's why people have had some issues.

The other thing is there's a line of adhesives that granite companies sell just for this purpose.

30:32

I bought 1.

I posted a photo of the tube on that thread.

I didn't use it.

It showed up like two weeks after I installed the sink.

So I I wanted to try it but I never used it.

But I'll tell you this, I don't know what's in it, but that tube of adhesive weighs twice as much as a tube of silicone.

30:47

If you hold them side by side.

It feels like it has lead in it.

I don't know what's in it, but it is exponentially heavier.

That tube same size tube as a silicone tube.

I don't know what's in it, but but they make adhesives for that just for guys to do it and knows they claim don't require, they don't require any clamps.

31:09

So when you do silicone, you have to clamp it and leave it overnight.

The silicone or not the silicone, the adhesives the granite companies sell, they claim you can just put it on there, stick it, and walk away.

Interesting.

Yeah, Nope, guys.

Leave that up to the plumber.

You don't install the sink.

31:27

Nope, no, I mean any of that install stuff unless I've done it in my house.

And then with those, I use those, you know, same thing I had to, you know, open up the concrete, get the cream away, and then I just epoxy the clips.

Yeah, those round ones have like little wing nuts on them.

31:45

Yep.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Real simple.

Yeah.

And in those you would put the sink before you flip the concrete.

After you run the back, you put the sink upside down.

You trace the outline of the sink, then you know where to put the clips.

So you you're outside of the flange of the sink.

That's another thing.

32:00

I mean, there's a lot of ways.

Do what works for you.

Do whatever you're comfortable with.

I'm just telling you my experience.

I've had an issue, but maybe I'm an outlier, maybe I'm maybe I'm lucky.

It's possible.

Brandon Gore buddy, you are lucky.

I do.

I do have a tattoo that says lucky, and I think it's true.

32:18

I think it's true.

There you go.

Yeah, I believe you create your own luck.

I think you're right.

I think you're right.

And I think, I think a lot luck, a lot of time is just solid preparation.

As long as you take the time to do it right, you don't cut corners, you're going to be pretty lucky.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yep, Yep.

What's up next, Jon?

32:35

What do you have next?

Well, I just wanted to say, well, let everybody know those who didn't know, there's a couple things going on.

The actually I think it's on the ICT forum.

So Alicia Dietz, thank you very much.

She gave an incredibly detailed which you know, it took her a moment which is great.

32:55

Amazingly detailed questions related to application, specifically related to the combination with Protect and Fusion, etcetera, etcetera.

So if anybody is interested, what I did with all of the questions that she presented is I answered it in line and then I actually turned it into a file and set it up in the files section of that page.

33:24

So if anybody as a reference, if you end up looking and you I had that question and then I can't find the answer, just let you know it's up in the file section.

And she had a lot of really good questions.

And I'm probably going to end up adding to that because I've gotten various questions since.

33:45

But hopefully, although it makes a lot of sense to everybody.

And then the other thing is I just want to let everybody know that the Matt Max is available.

It's on the store page for anybody who wants it.

And I'm having that material overnighted to us so that it could start going out next week.

34:05

Awesome.

So.

Well, that's, that's a good, a good segue to something I wanted to bring up, Jon.

Hit me.

So whenever we have a new product that comes out, we send some out as samples to people in return for honest feedback and photos of the results.

34:24

Right now, what we've talked about over the years is if you don't have any skin in the game, then your priorities are usually on something else, right?

And what I mean by that is over the years, product manufacturers have sent me stuff to test or to try, you know, just the sample or whatever.

34:41

And it'll show up in my shop and I'll put it on the on the shelf.

And then five years later, it's still on the shelf.

I've never gotten to it.

It's just sitting there.

I didn't pay for it.

I'll try one of these days.

I'll get to it.

I'll get to it.

And that that's kind of been our experience.

34:56

Aggravating.

Well, it's.

Aggravating, but it's been our experience so far as people's like, hey, Jon, can you send me something to test?

Can you send me something to try?

And you said, I, I'm happy to do it, but please share your feedback.

You send it and we never get feedback, right?

So a couple days ago, I got an e-mail from a whole different industry.

35:12

It's for automated gates.

I bought this automated gate system for my shop and they have a program to where they came out with a new product and they are going to you know, the 1st 10 people that are interested.

They'll you buy it, you pay for it, you test it, you send them your feedback and some photos and videos of your results and they will refund the order 100%.

35:36

So it's totally free, right?

You didn't, you didn't actually didn't pay for it.

And I'm saying to you, that's a really brilliant thing to do.

And going forward with Kodiak, I think that's going to be our system.

I'm going to write something up.

We'll have you know what, we'll have detailed terms, but essentially we'll, we'll allocate a certain number of whatever the new thing we're working on is, we'll put a call out who's interested, who wants to give this a shot?

35:57

Great.

They'll pay for it in full shipping and the, the product, we'll ship it to them.

And once they receive it, they'll have two weeks to try it to give us their honest feedback.

We're not paying for positive reviews.

We want your honest feedback, some photos and videos of your results.

36:13

And if you provide that within two weeks, we will refund the order in full, including the shipping.

So it didn't cost you anything.

But that way they have some skin in the game that it comes back to just if you have some skin in the game, you have an incentive to, you know, provide the the feedback that is valuable to us because that's that's.

36:31

Brilliant.

I think that's a fantastic thing because it does happen.

It does.

And you know, it's probably on both ends.

It's a little bit frustrating to Hey, Jon, Hey, can I get some of this?

You know, I got what I'm like, yeah, no problem, But you know, I only have a very small amount.

36:48

So the agreement is send, you know, I want feedback.

And when I say feedback, I don't mean like a text that just said, hey, good stuff, man.

You know, like, you know, like legit, you know, it's the two way St. meaning.

And maybe this sounds terrible, but no, I, you know, I'm not saying you got to be on every Facebook board and Instagram and, you know, sell it for me.

37:14

But what I do want is, yeah, some, some like legit feedback, how it felt, what you saw.

I mean, that's the agreement.

And there's, you know, let's say I got LAX on that for a while being a good guy.

37:30

And then it I feel like it happened a couple times again where I didn't get feedback and only because not because anybody's being nasty or jerks is, you know, their priorities changed.

Hey, you know, this happened or that happened and, you know, hey, I'll use it next time.

37:45

And so I'm thinking like, no, man, well, I didn't want to wait till next time, you know, do a sample, you know, do something for some feedback anyway.

Yeah.

So no, I love that.

I think this that would be brilliant.

It opens up everybody for skin in the game and at the same time, you know, honest, sincere feedback, good or bad.

38:07

Yeah, Yep, Yep.

Hey, I want to hit real quick, Jon, we have the basics, Fundamentals, Concrete Workshop, February 1st and 2nd Goddard, KS, go to concretedesignschool.com.

This is our basics class.

Had a few more registrations last week.

38:23

This class is going to be a lot of fun.

So if you're interested in concrete, this is a good stepping stone.

And I'm not going to bore you with all the details, but just go to concretedesignschool.com.

You can read about it and you can register there February 1st and 2nd, which is what, 10 days away?

38:39

12 days.

Yeah, two weeks.

It's not this weekend, it's the following weekend.

So yeah.

And I do it on a weekend, so you can fly in Friday evening, come to class Saturday, come to class Sunday, on Sunday, it's 1/2 day, you can catch your flight out on Sunday.

And you didn't miss any work.

You're back to it.

38:56

And yeah, so there's that.

What else, Jon?

What else you got?

I thought I got for now man.

That's it.

We don't get anything else.

Nothing else to talk about.

My life.

Well, one of the questions that Alicia had, which I thought was a good question, was does the new Matte Max only go in the last code of fusion?

39:20

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good Yeah.

That's that's actually a very good question.

And the answer to that equivocally is no.

And this goes all the way back to let's talk about like acid washing the concrete.

39:38

We've all known for a long, long time if you add a profile, even a minor profile to your concrete, it it really helps the way light deflects off the surface, which lowers Sheen in general.

OK, you take that to the next level and bring in something that's both absorbing and deflecting light from the very beginning.

40:01

It needs to get as close, if not into the concrete.

As you can.

So your matte additives need to be used from the very beginning, from the very first application, so that you're actually getting some into the pore structure, you're getting some into the initial microfilms, everything that starts the absorption and deflecting process from the very beginning.

40:26

So that's best practice #1 if you truly want a low Sheen.

The other side of that, I would say I've been huge about this in general is I, I'm a still believer that everything wears out.

So in this case, if you only put something that creates a deflection in your final application, I don't know how and I don't know when, but my thought process is sooner or later there may be some wear to that surface.

40:54

And now you're going to start getting underneath that.

You know, let's say is shiny, probably wouldn't be shiny, but still shiny.

And now the whole surface starts getting patchy over time.

And now you're being called back to try to repair and rejuvenate something based on a situation that didn't happen, did not have to happen in the beginning.

41:17

If, and I'm going to start out, if the question is like, well, hey, kind of want to put out there you guys.

I mean, I'm typically, I'm running 3 to 4% loading right now, which is incredibly soft Sheen.

It's beautiful.

It's absolutely stunning.

41:32

It feels stunning the way the, the MatteMax changes the surface in general.

So that increases wear with, you know, with the smoothness of the surface, the toughness of the surface.

It's it's really, really cool.

41:48

And as I told somebody, I don't take my word for it.

Get some and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

So the idea was start from that from the very beginning.

And where was I going with this?

I don't know.

I'm down the road.

42:03

I lost myself.

What was it?

Somebody asked me.

Oh, So what you could do though, if you want to, because this is the whole idea with this.

It's about us controlling the finish.

So what you could do is load 3 or 4% in your national applications and then in your load later applications, put your heavier load because at 3 to 4%, I'm getting an incredibly low satin Sheen.

42:33

And it's beautiful at 6% for me personally, it's still gorgeous, but it's, it looks very raw.

I mean, the concrete looks very raw.

There's little to no Sheen at all.

42:49

Man, it sounds awesome to me.

I'm excited.

Beautiful, yeah, I'm telling you and and I'm I hate to keep pumping, but but the feel to me, OK, Sheen, I'll be honest man, Sheen OK, whatever the feel, the it's a stupid feel.

It is it is stunning how it how it feels with that loading.

43:09

So I could see somebody doing that and then load loader loading the higher rates in your final applications.

But I'm going to say the same thing.

You know, the the idea with this, I mean, the real best practices of this is get that all the way down and in the concrete.

43:29

So you're starting the absorption and deflection of the light all as close to the concrete as you can possibly get, instead of, let's say, mentally trying to think of it like, oh, I'm just going to create this, you know, reflective film.

43:46

Well, to be honest with you, it just doesn't work that way.

I mean the realities of light and light deflection just doesn't work that way.

Well, and, and the material, because it's not like a traditional topical that's a plastic film over the surface, right?

Yeah.

Where in that case it would work that way.

44:02

In that case, you would load up the matting agent in the plastic film and you'd coat it with this thick layer of plastic and it would be on a microscopic level, very rough the surface that would deflect the light.

But with this, because it's not a film in that traditional sense, you're not getting that same effect.

44:19

So you need to start it earlier on.

Well, then once again, I'm going to say this is probably where, you know, a little bit of a misinterpretation, misunderstanding.

So typical conventional matting agents, that's what they're built for.

44:35

They're built to put into films.

They're usually a, a fume silica or a wax or, or something like that.

And that's what it's done.

This is an absolutely not a conventional matting agent.

This is really built around the entire idea of deflecting the light, you know, and I don't know how to go much further than that, but it literally is absorbing and changing the way light is moving over the surface.

45:02

And for everything I've done so far, you know, with like previous protects and so forth, you know, rubbing or some kind of especially with the silicates could increase the Sheen.

And I am absolutely not seeing this possible with the with the Mad Max material.

45:20

So I'm I, I have to admit, you know, even though, yes, all right, this is one of those brainstorming, I'm impressed.

I'm like legitimately impressed with this material.

Yeah, I would say don't say it's not possible because somebody will be able to achieve it.

There's somebody out there that's going to put it on and then somehow hit it with like an automotive buffer or something and then create a shame.

45:39

And Jon, I don't know what's going on.

It's got it's got a shiny.

Hit with a 10,000 grip diamond pad.

OK, man, I guess I can think of that one.

Yeah, there's somebody, there's somebody out there that will figure it out.

45:54

They'll crack the code on how to make it create a Sheen.

But yeah, it's very difficult, extremely, exceedingly difficult to do right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And again, it's that's why best practices all the way down to the concrete from your very first application, let it soak in, let it be part integral with all the cement matrix and everything and start it from there and work your way out.

46:17

Yeah, that's a good point.

Did you hear that?

David Lynch, the director, died last week.

No, but I'm terrible with names.

So what did David Lynch?

Well, David, he's a really famous director.

He did Mulholland Drive, but he did Twin Peaks, which was a huge success back in the 90s, Twin Peaks, maybe late 80s, early 90s Twin Peaks when it came out.

46:42

So he did Twin Peaks, but he was, he was just a really interesting guy, Very interesting.

He was actually, I talked about Transcendental Meditation a few podcasts back, but a long time ago when I was in Phoenix, a friend of mine owns a restaurant.

46:58

I was having lunch with him and he's like, man, I think I'm doing Transcendental Meditation.

Oh, what's that?

And he told me about it and he said that he'd seen a talk given by David Lynch where he's talking about it, and that's what inspired him.

So I looked up David Lynch Transcendental Meditation and turns out he had a whole foundation dedicated to just trying to spread awareness and, you know, teach kids at school and things like that Transcendental Meditation.

47:19

But I watched some of his videos talking about it and that's what pushed me to to start meditating was him because he said he did it, you know, at this point, I don't know, 50 years ago, but he did it once and never missed a day since.

And it was, it was one of the greatest things that he ever did because it allowed him to kind of have deep rest in his brain and creativity and access those parts of whatever.

47:42

But anyways, he has a quote that I love.

And his quote is keep your eye on the doughnut, not the hole, I just, I think that's like such, I've been kind of, that's been recirculating in my, my subconscious, you know, quite a bit lately, the last week since he passed away because that quote came up.

48:01

And I'm like, man, that is such a, such a phenomenal quote because it's so true.

We focus on the negatives, whatever it is.

And this, I'm just going off topic here, but whatever, we focus on the negatives, we don't focus on the positives.

And the more you focus on the negative, the more of that you'll get.

You know, if all you do is look at this, that's all you're going to see and that's all that's going to be your reality where we don't focus on the good enough.

48:23

We don't focus on the whether it's our business, you know, we're talking about concrete life and being a business owner.

And it's very easy to get kind of consumed in this cycle of negativity.

I don't have enough work, you know, I'm not hearing from designers.

I don't feel very creative and it's just this self fulfilling prophecy.

48:42

Just loops and loops and loops and loops versus I'm fortunate to be doing this.

I'm not working a corporate job.

The world is my oyster.

I have unlimited possibilities and things I can do.

There's different ways to to to approach this industry and being a small business owner, but keep your eye on the donut, not the hole.

49:02

Keep your eye on the donut, not the hole.

I think it's a great way to put it.

That is a great way to put it.

And yeah, like anything, I think we've talked about this in life and it's hard sometimes, right?

I'm not.

Sometimes I think in general it's just difficult.

Meaning, you know, who you hang around, you know, you reap what you sow whatever, how, whatever cliche someone wants to come up with.

49:23

But if you keep as positive, you'll find that you surround yourself with a lot of positive.

That's why I'm, I haven't told anybody.

I guess I'm announcing it now.

I'm I'm moving to Australia, Alberto.

I know for a fact you're not allowed in Australia.

49:40

I was there when we got caught at the customs office.

I haven't showed you I I built my own boat.

I'm going to sail in and on the shores.

A dingy.

But that guy is incredibly positive.

49:58

He's just, you know, he's such a magnet.

Who's this?

And who are we talking about, Crocco?

Oh, Alberto Crocco.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alberto is exceedingly positive.

50:13

Yeah, exceedingly.

He helped me.

He showed up, I told the story when he showed up to my shop and he helped me for, I don't know, like a month at that point.

He was in my shop.

And when he laughed, he like wrote me this really nice long note.

And he left me a, a, a claw from a lion he got from the Maasai tribe in Africa when he was traveling around.

50:34

And he left me this really cool line claw necklace, which I, I still have.

But yeah, he just, he's a super positive guy.

Super positive.

I when I was building my, my house, I had this dude that interned with me.

I hated this guy.

50:50

I'm not going to name his name, but let me tell you the story real quick, Jon.

So I've.

Never heard it.

Well, we got we got 9 minutes for this podcast.

I want to tell you this story and hopefully some people know who I'm talking about.

So this dude hit me up.

He was coming to a class.

51:06

He hit me up and said, hey, I'm going to be in this next class.

He's paying to come to the class and I'd love to talk to you about interning.

Now, I don't do interns.

I don't do interns.

I don't want it.

I don't need it.

It's just I've tried unpaid people in the past and it's a source of aggravation, right?

So I said, well, I don't, I don't do interns.

51:24

Like, well, I just want to talk to you about it.

Great.

So he comes to the class.

I immediately didn't like him.

I immediately got a bad vibe.

Now, sometimes you meet people in life and you get a bad feeling from him, right?

You're just like, I don't know what it is, but I'm getting an icky feeling from from just the energy or whatever.

And so I got this bad vibe and he kept saying, hey, I want to talk to you.

51:43

I want to talk to him.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I kept blowing it off.

I had a guy helping me.

His name is Joseph.

He's from Amsterdam.

He was, he was helping me and, and Joseph and I, the class finished.

We were having dinner at a restaurant in Eureka Springs and the guy texts me.

51:59

He's like, hey, I got to leave for my flight.

I really want to sit down and just talk to you for 5 minutes.

And you know, I showed Joseph the text.

He's like, dude, just tell him.

Just tell him, tell him the truth, right?

OK, fine.

So I tell him to come to the restaurant.

He comes to the restaurant, he sits down and I just go, I'm going to be straight with you, bro.

52:15

I don't like you.

I don't know why I don't like you.

I get a bad feeling from you.

I don't trust you and I don't know why that is, but I'm just telling you the truth.

And he's like, man, everybody says that.

My best friend say that you know, it's just I'm standoffish when I first meet the island.

52:30

With Epstein I was telling you about.

It, you know, when I meet people, I'm shy and awkward, socially awkward and they just perceive it that way.

But you know, it's like, I promise you, it's just my social anxiety.

Another thing was he was like 150 lbs now he wanted, he wanted to intern, help me build my house.

52:48

The forms are 100 LBS, you know, and this, this kid's like 150.

And I said, OK, second part, I don't think you could do it.

I don't think you could physically do the job.

I don't think you're strong enough to do the job.

He's like, man, just give me a chance.

Just give me a chance, Just give me a chance.

Please, please, please.

53:05

I look at Joseph.

Joseph like shrugs his shoulders.

I'm like, this is my better judgement.

I should have said no, but I said OK, I will give it a shot.

I'll pay.

I'm not going to pay you a salary, but I'll pay you $2000 a month per diem or whatever it was some kind of per diem for his living expenses to come down.

53:24

He was from North Carolina.

Pay you per diem.

But if you do anything that ticks me off, out you go.

We'll be done, right?

He's like, thanks, man.

OK, so we start the project.

He shows up immediately.

We're clashing.

We're button heads.

I would say do this, this way and he would do it the opposite way.

53:42

And I'd say, dude, there's a reason why I want you to do it this way, because I've done it the way you're doing it, and that's wrong.

And here's what happened.

I don't have to explain to you every time I say we need to do something why the reason is I don't have time for that.

You know, like, so if I give you instructions, just follow the instructions.

But every time I give him instructions, he would do it his own way.

53:58

Aggravating.

Joseph, I'm going to let this guy go, man.

Don't let him go.

Let me take care of him, Right?

So we had a, I'm going to give you the long story, I guess.

We had a ton of rocks around the shop and I did the construction.

We had to excavate Arkansas.

It should be called Rockansaw.

54:15

It's just all rock.

So we ended up with all these rocks, like basketball sized rocks all around the shop where I couldn't mow the grass.

And so when I first like the first day this, this kid showed up, I said, listen, there's going to be a day where it's going to snow.

It's winter time.

We're going to pick up these rocks and that's going to be your job.

54:32

I'm just letting you know a snow day when we can't be doing rammed earth, you're going to pick up the rocks.

He's like, yeah, no problem.

So I come in one day, it's snowing.

I said, hey, so and so today's your lucky day picking up rocks.

Go grab a wheelbarrow.

I'll meet you outside.

I got to talk to Joseph for a minute.

So tell Joseph, hey, do this, this and this.

54:47

I had to go to a meeting in town, so I go outside.

Tears are running down his face.

His face is all puffy and red.

His eyes are red.

Tears are running down his face.

This is a grown man, by the way.

Right, you made him cry.

Come on, man.

And shocking like, you know, I might cry at like some old like old Yeller.

55:06

I might cry an old yeller, you know, like there's a sad movie.

You might catch me cry, but I'll never cry.

Or something like this.

I like what?

Huh.

Then like took me off guard.

Like what is going on?

I'm like what's up, dude?

He's like, I'm better more than this and I'm like, better than what?

55:24

He's like picking up rocks.

Is that OK dude?

Yeah, I've never seen that.

Yeah.

Go home, go home.

Like go pack your bag and go back to North Carolina.

He's like, I'm not saying that.

I'm like, what are you saying?

He's like, well, I'm just saying I'm better than this.

I said, listen here, let me tell you what's up.

55:41

These rocks are going to get picked up.

So either you're going to pick up the rocks, I'm going to pick up the rocks, Joseph is going to pick up the rocks, or some guy off Craigslist is going to pick up the rocks.

But these rocks are going to get moved, OK?

They're not going to be out here.

So you can do it or you can not do it.

But I'm going to tell you, man, I got like 50 plates spinning in the air with this house.

56:00

I got subcontractors, I got bank loans, I got all kinds of stuff.

I wish the only thing I had to do today was pick up rocks.

I wish I could just put my air pods in, listen to a podcast, pick a rocks.

That'd be an amazing day.

I wish I could do that.

So either pick up the rocks or go home.

I could care less either way.

56:16

So I leave, and when I get back, he's out there picking up rocks.

I go in.

Joseph alone goes like, don't let him go, don't let him go, all right, whatever.

So let Joseph deal with them.

So this just goes on and on and on, and it's like it's hurting the morale of the rest of the crew.

I just don't want to be around them.

56:32

I don't like being around them.

I don't like interacting with them every day.

I want to let them go.

I'm not paying them anything besides per diem.

Right?

It's really hard to fire somebody when you're not paying them.

But if you dislike them so much that it's worth cutting somebody loose, you're not paying.

That says something.

And I'm I, I I want to cut the guy loose.

But Joseph just keeps talking me out of it.

56:49

Let me take care of it.

Let me take care of it.

Whatever.

So we teach a class.

We had a pinnacle workshop.

You came to it.

You were teachers.

Yeah, and this.

This one of the nicest guys I've ever met before so.

This dummy, he's a dummy.

57:04

This dummy gets drunk.

We have a big bonfire, we're cooking out and stuff and apparently he was walking around.

He's like man, Brandon Gore, he's he doesn't know what he's doing.

He doesn't know anything about rammed earth.

He's doing it all wrong now.

57:20

I didn't hear dude.

I didn't hear it but.

No, I didn't hear any.

Of that and it turns out Wade was there.

Wade.

So Wade Bloom was there.

I I brought this up to Wade because he's like, hey, you ever talked to someone?

So I'm like, man, I can't stand that guy.

He's my biggest regret.

But he's he's like, yeah, no, he was saying that stuff like he was, you know, telling people you didn't know what you were doing and you had no idea how to do it right.

57:39

Says this dumb kid that's you know whatever.

So anyways, I hear about it after he's gone.

So they'd like take like Sean is there.

Sean takes him back to the hotel and I hear like he's running his mouth and I'm like, that's it, man.

Like I can't have this guy in the class.

57:56

And during the class he was like sad panda.

He's like frowning in the background.

There's photos.

He's like in the background, like a sad face.

Whatever.

I don't got time for it.

So, you know, if you can't just like, let me take care of it.

He was just drunk, you know, whatever.

So I come in the next day and he's standing outside my shop and it's snowing.

58:14

I don't know if you remember this class, but it was snowing.

It's snowing.

He's dressed like a homeless guy.

He's got like ripped sweatpants on and like his huge baggy sweatshirt.

And he, he looks like a homeless guy.

And I get I'm like, Hey, what's up, Hobo Joe?

And he goes, I quit like so dramatic.

58:34

And I go, oh, true story, take care.

And I go inside and I shut the door and I'm like, all right, let's get started, right?

Because the whole class is there.

He thought he was going to burn me to the ground.

He thought he was like, you know, throwing a wrench in my whole project of the rammed earth because we're like probably about a month from completion and he's going to bail, going to bail during a class again, you're not helping the class.

58:53

You're talking trash, right?

So but Alberto, how this all ties in?

Alberto is in that class and after it, you know, so I told Alberto, hey, that dummy just quit.

So thank, thank God, Alberto's like, dude, I will extend my stay and help you finish your house.

59:14

Awesome.

So Alberto extended the stay.

He helped me finish the house.

The morale went up dramatically.

Everybody was happy, Everybody's in a good mood.

The photos from that point on, everybody's smiling.

The photos up until then, everybody's pissed off.

It's amazing how one person can be a cancer to the entire process.

59:34

So you know.

Well, and the and the flip side, how one guy can be uplifting.

That's my point.

Entire spirit this.

His positive energy, his positive outlook was so refreshing.

And that's the kind of team you want to build.

That's the kind of people you know, surround yourself with.

59:51

Yeah.

You know.

So anyways, all right, why not know?

Let's wrap it up.

All right, buddy.

Adios, amigo.

Adios.