The Price of Perception: Unlocking the Value Behind Your Work

As we close out 2024, we’re bringing clarity to a topic that can transform your success in 2025: perceived value. Building on last week’s discussion, we’ll explore how understanding and communicating the true worth of what you offer can elevate your craft, increase your impact, and attract more of the right opportunities.

This episode is an invitation to look inward, refine your messaging, and align your pricing strategy with the value you create. Join us as we share insights to help you craft a more profitable, fulfilling year ahead.

Upcoming Workshops:

• RammCrete Workshop: January 11th–12th in Goddard, KS
• Basics Fundamentals Workshop: February 1st–2nd in Goddard, KS. Register now at Concrete Design School!

#PersonalGrowth #PerceivedValue #SelfDevelopmentJourney #Profitable2025 #BrandBuilding #EntrepreneurMindset #CreativeEntrepreneur #LeadershipDevelopment #SuccessStrategies

TRANSCRIPT

This is where you're gonna tell me, all right, let's do this again.

Yeah, let's do this again.

You ready?

All right.

Let's do it.

All right.

Ho, ho, ho!

Merry Christmas, Jon Schuler.

Merry Christmas, Brandon Gore.

It's Christmas Eve, 2024.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Were you a good boy this year?

I was a very good boy.

Oh, I felt like it anyway.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, hopefully Santa brings you something nice tonight.

Real nice.

I hope so.

Remember that?

You know what movie that's from?

Get yourself something real nice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We just watched that.

Christmas Vacation.

Christmas Vacation.

Yeah, Uncle Eddie.

Yeah, yeah.

Every time my wife goes shopping for me for Christmas, that's how I feel.

If it's not too much trouble, Clark, how about you get yourself something real nice?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

20 hands on the list, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So our last podcast of 2024, I think we're on episode.

I looked it up.

134, I want to say, or 135.

Let me, while we're talking, let me just pull it up.

We're on episode.

Oh, I'm sorry.

We're on episode 130.

This is episode 130.

130 months.

130 weeks, sorry, 130 weeks, but that's a lot.

That's a lot.

That's a lot, yeah.

It's insane that we've done this many.

Or like the podcast cockroaches.

Or like something, I don't know.

Most podcasts, they do five or 10 episodes, and then they, there's so many.

There's so many.

I mean, my HVAC guy has a podcast.

He's done like three episodes, and I think he's done, you know?

Some show up, create drama, get in fights, then they're gone.

That's not very Christmasy.

That is Christmasy.

I mean, I don't know if I'm doing well.

I just, you know, Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas.

I wish everybody well.

And again, thank you to everybody's actually on their Christmas, what are you, for sending me Merry Christmas messages this morning.

Thank you very much.

You got, I didn't get any of those.

Oh, you didn't?

I didn't get a single one.

Every person I sent a gift to is now sending me one, very.

I did, however, I did, however, and I want to give a shout out.

Remember shout outs from the 90s?

Everybody's doing a shout out.

So stupid.

But I want to give a shout out to Joe Bates, sent a really great care package, Christmas gifts, a hand made concrete pastry knife, like concrete handles, really cool.

And a bunch of homemade stuff from his family's farm.

So thank you, Joe.

And then I got a great package from Gabriel and Ashlea.

Every Christmas.

So he sent very thoughtful gift and they send like kids books.

My kids love the books they send and candy from the UK.

So in a really cool candle, Erin loves it.

So thank you guys.

I appreciate it.

Actually, you know, it's funny about that.

I did call Joe the same thing.

Tell him, thank you.

Yeah.

And I wish I hadn't talked to you because I'm like, and bro, what's with the cookie dough?

He's all I knew.

I care about that.

I'm like, man, come on.

Good cookie dough too.

Good cookie dough.

Yeah.

And you know what?

Gabe hit me with one too.

But it hasn't showed up yet.

So but thank you.

I'm going to throw a thank you.

You know what?

Just thank you for the thought, really.

That's the end of the day.

That's what matters.

It's the thought that matters.

Absolutely.

100%.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So before we get cracking on this last podcast of 2024, a couple of things to hit.

The first is the workshops.

RammCrete is coming up February 11th, or I'm sorry, January 11th and 12th, which is like two weeks.

It's in two weeks.

Yeah, that's right around the corner, buddy.

Yeah.

So I sent out a class email last night to everybody, giving them details, but you still have plenty of time to register.

So hop on Concrete Design School and get registered for RammCrete, the rammed earth aesthetic UHPC.

It is the hottest look of 2025.

You want to be doing it.

This is the class.

So get registered and get to that class.

So Concrete Design School.

The second one is The Basics, our fundamental concrete workshop, and that's going to be February 1st and 2nd.

Again, concretedesignschool.com.

And that's our introductory class.

That's the class that gets you started on the right foot.

So templating, batching, mixing, casting, curing, sealing.

That's what that's about.

And it's The Basics, but it's a good foundation.

You can't build a house without a good foundation.

So start with the foundation.

That's that class.

So those two things.

And I just wanted to throw out there because I actually had a few three people just email me or messenger me.

They don't really email me, messenger me.

I just want to make it clear that the fundamentals classes that are going to be done in Concrete Design School, they're not product-oriented.

This isn't a product demo situation.

This is going through the good steps.

Exactly.

The skill sets to move you.

What you end up deciding to use as a material, I mean, that's on you.

But this is really about the foundations.

Yeah.

I just wanted to let anybody know that, that listening or thought maybe this was all going to be a Kodiak Pro based thing.

It's not.

Not at all.

No.

No.

Concrete Design School is based on skills.

So that's what we're teaching is skill set.

There's other companies out there that do demo days.

And we talk about doing demo days, and we should do a demo day.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with demo days, but demo days are exactly that.

A demo day is a demonstration of a product.

Now, some of these other classes out there, you know, these demo days, they're going to try to market it as training.

Like they'll call it for, you know, learn how to do this for profit.

But the guys teaching it have never done it.

You know, I guess I didn't see it, but you saw it on one of the Facebook pages or one of these Yokels got on there and was like, you know, come learn from us and we'll learn how to use a sealer from the pros.

And I guess somebody asked, like, tell me how much sealer you've applied in your professional career.

Crickets, not a response.

Well, that's the thing, I was actually laughing with you because I didn't know if the, I'll be honest with you, I never know someone's sense of humor.

So then I was thinking maybe the comment was made sarcastically, meaning again, although yes, they carry a product and in some way support the product with a tech data sheet and so forth and so on.

Maybe he was just making a sarcastic comment to be like, oh, and by the way, you know, we got the-

Because you told me who made the comment and that guy's, he is a village idiot.

That guy is a complete moron.

So he 100% meant it.

Yeah.

And also for our top, you know, give me a call for the top not cut support.

That's where someone came back and said, you know, please tell me how much seal are you?

Anyway, it was funny.

Maybe it was meant to be sarcastic, but it really was funny.

The problem with stupid people is they don't know they're stupid.

That's the problem.

The guy legitimately thinks he's a concrete expert and he's never done it in his life.

But he's going to hop on Facebook until people that actually have legitimate questions on how to do stuff, he's going to tell them how to do it, but he's never done it.

So, whatever, that's been going on since the beginning.

And it'll keep going on, you're going to have sales.

I mean, that's the end of the day, right?

I mean, if you and I were smarter businessmen, let's just be honest about it, and then we would hire a manager and a sales staff, and then that's what they do.

They sell, that's their job, to do sales.

But we have a different twist on things and it is what it is.

Yeah, well, experience matters.

That's always been our mantra, experience matters.

Experience is the most important thing.

So when you call Kodiak, you message us, it's me or Jon that gets back to you.

And both of us have extensive experience in what we're talking about.

So you know the information you're getting comes from a place of experience.

And that means all the difference.

Where, yeah, if you go to World of Concrete, World of Concrete is coming up next month.

But if you go to World of Concrete and you're walking around and you're talking to these guys, no matter what product it is, anything at World of Concrete, you're talking to a used car salesman.

That's who you're talking to.

Hey, young man, have you seen our sealer?

It's the best sealer in the world.

They got all the tanks at SeaWorld sealed with it.

Shamu loves it.

Oh, really?

Yes, sir.

You know, I mean, they're all, they're just used car salesmen.

None of them have any experience.

Zero experience, but they will talk a big game all day long.

I love going to World of Concrete to see how big the concrete industry is, but talking to the salespeople there is a waste of time.

You have to do your own research.

You need to really find people that have experience with the product, which isn't going to be the salesperson.

It's going to be people in the field.

So if there's something you're interested in, whatever it is, let's say you do flat working or some sealer, you should ask around and find guys actually use it and have used it for a while.

And they say, nah, dude, the stuff's legit, versus the salesman that's going to tell you it's the best thing ever, but he's never used it.

He's never used it once ever on a client project.

Agreed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And anybody, you know, get into it, that is a fact.

Right or wrong, good or bad, it is what it is.

Yep.

Second thing I want to hit Jon, besides the upcoming classes, is December 24th.

We have, what, seven days left in the year right now.

We got one week left in the year, so there's still time to order your Kodiak Pro products and get that taxable income for 2024 down.

So when you buy your raw materials for production, that's cost of goods sold, that helps lower your taxable income for the year.

So if you need product, if I were you, because this is what I'm doing, this is what Jon's doing, this is what all small business owners do at the end of the year, you're trying to find ways to lower your taxable income.

You're buying equipment, you're buying materials, you're buying whatever you can do.

You're trading your truck in, you're trying to get the taxable income down.

So, if you're needing product, place your order this week, and that's going to help you for 2024.

Yeah, I still got to figure out how to get those receipts for the cocaine and hookers.

I'm never forget just to laugh at the day when they caught the guy who's like getting his lotto ticket, and they're like, what are you going to do if you win?

He's like, cocaine and hookers.

Anyway, it was funny.

I thought it was funny.

We should just look to our representatives in government.

They could tell you how to get away with it, Jon.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

I want to add one more thing, since we're probably going to hit one before the end of the year.

Everybody keep a lookout.

January, Justin Byrd came up with a really cool idea, like a design contest kind of thing.

And again, it's for fun.

You know, winter takes all the glory.

So watch out for that.

I think, you know, anybody interested, it'll be a good time.

Good time to get outside your box, do something different, do something fun, compete with your peers in a good way.

You know.

Where can they find out more, Jon?

Where can they sign up?

That's a good question.

Where do they?

I don't even know where Justin, I mean, I know he's posted on the-

Well, you went down this road, you didn't have a conclusion when you started down this journey.

No, no, no.

Because I was going to ask you the same question, but you asked me first, so now I feel like a dummy.

I know it's been posted on the Kodiak page, but yeah, where do you sign up at?

You set up a Facebook group.

But yeah, I would say-

Oh, we did.

Yeah, go to the Kodiak Pro Discussion group, and Justin Bird has a post to his Facebook page for the challenge.

Cool.

Yep, yep.

Well, are we ready to do this podcast?

Let's do it.

Yeah, I think we got hopefully a fun subject.

Yeah.

Well, it ties in the last week.

So last week, we're talking about pricing, and I gave some general guidelines, and I gave some ways you can approach getting the handle on your cost.

So your pricing is specific to you and your unique circumstances, your labor rate, your shop expenses, your insurance, your tax rate, all that kind of stuff plays into it.

And you need to understand that.

But beyond that, the other thing, you know, I've done classes now since, I started teaching for Buddy back in early 2000s, but I've been doing Concrete Design School since 2004 or 2005.

I think 2005 was the first GFRC class.

One of the things that comes up in every class is people have a very hard time getting out of their own way when it comes to the cost.

So when we start talking about pricing, let's just throw out some random numbers.

Let's say this sink we're making in the class, they're like, well, what would you charge for this?

And I say, honestly, for this sink, I'll charge 5,000.

Their minds explode.

How?

Oh, my God.

Somebody would pay 5,000 for that?

Holy cow.

That's a lot of money.

The problem is two things.

One, we relate our reality with our customer's reality.

And those two things are completely different.

My customers, over the years, when I go to their houses, when I go to their offices, the level they live at is mind-blowing.

The vacations they go on, we live in different worlds.

And so when I give a price to them, and that price is based on math, I have my score footage price and my time price, and I calculate it, and that's the price.

I'm not just making up a number because they're rich.

I give them the number based on the math.

But when I give them the number, and that number is some big number, that's a big number for me.

For them, it's peanuts.

For them, it's lessen peanuts.

It's one of the things that we have to understand that most of our customers, once you get to a certain segment, our realities are completely different.

And what we think is expensive, they don't.

So you have to get it your own way.

The second thing, and this is the thing that I think is really important, and we all experience this, is perceived value.

Perceived value.

That's a big one.

It's a huge one.

And the easiest way to think about it is a name brand versus generic.

You go into Walmart and you're going to buy, let's say, hand soap, right?

And there's some, there's Burt's Bees, I don't know, Burt's Bees hand soap, and it's $7.

And then right next to it is Equate brand, and it's 99 cents, and they're both honey milk, whatever.

I don't know, you know?

So you're looking at it like, hmm, I like my hands, my hands are important to me.

I like quality.

I'm going to buy the $7 soap, and you grab it and you throw it in your basket, right?

Or aspirin, you know, there's the Tylenol, and then there's the Equate brand.

You're going to buy the Tylenol brand.

You know, there's these things that perceived value, and it relates to price.

You're looking at clothing, a T-shirt that's $30 versus a T-shirt that's $2.

You're going to perceive the $30 one being higher quality.

Watches is another great one.

You know, Seiko, I have a Seiko watch that is probably every bit as good as a Rolex, or very, very close, and it was $500, right?

Well, Rolex is $30,000, but there's a perceived value of the price.

This $30,000 watch to a wealthy client has to be better.

It has to be higher quality.

It has to be made with better materials, you know, by higher level craftsmen because of the price.

And they value that.

They value quality and craftsmanship.

Well, I think we all still struggle with it.

I mean, this is something, although we touched on it a little bit last week when we were, I think I asked more of the question based on a post.

Someone was using Cementol versus other products.

And I'm just trying to go back to all of this.

You know, there's a perceived value.

And at the end of the day, I was just going through some photos again that I actually was sending to one of the raw materials manufacturers, because I'm not going to go into it, but a potential ad mixture that I'm working on, et cetera, et cetera.

And I showed him how to end products, raw concrete, depth of color, density, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And he got into a conversation, a conference call with the chemist, the rep of the company, which, you know, a salesman, he's just trying to get me to where I need to be, to talk to who I need to be.

And then we were going through the photos.

And then I was asking them like, hey, you know, this is what I'm after and this is why.

And to them, in the conversation, again, without saying which concrete products or whatever, again, this was raw concrete and what was cast, the ones that were richer in color and et cetera, et cetera, had a distinct difference in perceived value, even though they were pictures of two vessel sinks and two concrete countertop pieces.

And so, I'm right up there with you where it's the perceived value to the end customer that correlates to everything from the products we're using, how we stand behind them.

I still remember a time, it was right after I bought my pickup truck, my 2003 Ford, and I showed up on the job and I started laughing because the owner, when I showed up, his first things like, is that a new truck?

I'm like, yeah.

And he goes, well, so I take it, I'm not going to be able to ford you.

And I'm like, maybe not.

It turns around, man.

That just that alone got me the job because it instantly told him a difference in perceived value, as simple as that was.

Yeah.

So well, when I think about my journey with this in the beginning, I focused on price and being a low price.

Yeah, because that is the most logical way to sell your product.

If you're new, you're inexperienced, you don't have a portfolio, you're going to say, well, how can I sell this?

I got to sell it by making it cheap.

And that's a mistake, especially in the digital age where everything lives forever.

When you build a website, when you post on Facebook or anything like this, and you're doing a sale, you know, this weekend only, concrete countertop sale, half off, you know, blah, blah, blah.

That's kind of stuff I used to do back in the day, back in 2004, I was doing this kind of self-defeating things of lowering my price to sell the product.

And it did a few things.

First of all, it lives forever.

So it makes it very difficult to increase your price.

People will wait until you have a sale, or they will find it and say, well, a week ago, you were selling these for 50 square foot.

Now you're 100 square foot?

What changed?

Well, I was doing a sale last week.

Yeah, but, you know, come on now.

We're all human.

We all do it.

Yeah.

So there's that.

But the second thing is the people that are buying it are buying it based on price.

And so they're kind of assuming already it's going to be a less than material.

It's lower price.

It's like going to Harbor Freight.

You know, Harbor Freight, in some instances, they're just rebranding Snap-on tools, you know, in a way.

The same factories are making it.

But there's a perceived value that it's lower quality because it's a lower price than Snap-on or some other brand.

Right?

So there's already that going against it.

So if we're thinking about wanting to have our price at such a way that the client has a perceived value of quality, that's great.

But that's not the entire story.

There's more to it than that.

So you need to really think about, what am I selling?

Price needs to correlate with the level that I'm at.

So that's why, when I'm talking about perceived value, you know, $5,000 for a sink versus $200 for a sink.

You know, there's guys that will sell you a sink for $200, but there's a client that looks at that and says, well, I don't want a $200 sink.

I want the $5,000 sink.

I want that.

You know, that's going to be a much better sink.

Yes, but more than that, it's customization.

It's quality, quality of materials, quality of craftsmanship.

It's exclusivity.

That's another part of it, is, you know, Rolex, they don't sell them at Walmart.

They don't sell them on Amazon, you know?

Like, there's an exclusive aspect to it.

Like, Porsche, all these different things, they're much more exclusive.

So, that's going to drive price up.

Hermes, Cartier, Rolex, all these things.

It's exclusivity.

So, you need to focus on the things that make your product unique and things that make concrete unique.

Because concrete is the most abundantly used material in the world.

So, there's, you know, people, a lot of times, before they really see what you can make with concrete, they have this preconceived notion that it's a cheap material, you know, it's a cheap material.

Right.

Inexpensive, yeah.

Yeah.

And I think of, my buddy, Paulo, had a great analogy for this.

When people would say that, he would say, you know, a palette that you get shipped goods on is made of wood.

Yeah, yeah.

What's it, five bucks, five dollars for that palette?

A violin is also made of wood, but that's going to be 10,000, 20,000, 30,000, you know, depending on the maker for the same thing.

They're both made of wood.

So it's not the material, it's what you do with the material.

That's how he would frame it to a client that would kind of throw into his face, well, concrete's cheap, right?

And he would bring the palette and the violin, which I always thought was such a great way of framing it to a customer so they can understand that it's not the material.

But it's what you can do with concrete.

That's what people buy.

And this goes to, you know, design is everything, which has always been a mantra with Concrete Design School.

Design is everything.

That's why it's Concrete Design School.

Design is everything.

So it's what you make with concrete.

You have to use the best materials you can get, and that's going to be subjective.

Some people think cement tall is the best.

Great, you should keep using that.

If you in your heart believe that's the best way, then definitely go that route, right?

Some people are going to think that quickcrete is the best.

For whatever reason, they think that's the best.

Then by all means, use what you feel is the best.

But you need to find, through your own due diligence, the best materials you can use.

So start with the best ingredients, kind of like a chef.

They're going to try to get the highest grade beef, the highest grade seafood, the highest grade whatever for their stuff.

They're not going to go down to, I don't know, Piggly Wiggly and buy the choice grade steaks for, you know...

Yeah, the Schwann's trucks, not driving by.

For a fine dining establishment.

They're going to start with really high quality ingredients.

But then it's what you do with it.

That's what's going to be imperative.

And so if that's going to be an aesthetic like Dusty Crete, that's going to set it apart.

Dusty, I don't know what his price, I haven't talked to Dusty in a long time about pricing, but I'm going to guess.

I'm just going to guess he's probably in the 300 square foot range.

You know, high twos, mid threes, somewhere in that range.

I would guess, based on what he does, right?

There's nothing in the market at any concrete retailer, when you go to any, you know, these showrooms, that comes close to Dusty Crete.

So what he's offering to a customer is something they can't get anywhere else.

And for a certain clientele, that is priceless.

They will happily pay 300 square foot for it, all day long.

Then he's offering customization.

You know, he can do whatever they want.

Oh, you want it to be more in the gray tone palette?

We can do that.

Oh, you want it to be more in this?

We can do that.

Oh, you want a waterfall edge?

No problem.

You want integral sinks?

I can do that.

You want a carved edge?

No problem.

He's offering customization.

It's a one-off.

It's a one-time only for this customer.

This isn't being done with the CNC.

This isn't being done, you know, with some, I don't know, like, I think of like, granite, where they use the brush hammers to like chisel the edge, you know, but they all look the same.

It doesn't matter which manufacturer does it.

It has the same aesthetic.

What Dusty is doing is completely customized.

And then exclusivity.

You know, there's only so much, again, Dusty's products aren't sold in big box stores.

They're not sold at IKEA.

They're not selling things like that.

So there is an exclusive aspect to it.

So customers feel that there's value associated with that.

So there's a lot that goes into perceived value, but it's what are you selling?

What are you selling?

And I would highly encourage you not to sell based on low price.

And not to sell based on high price, but the price should correlate to the quality of the product you're trying to get into the market.

I have an idea of doing a new line of outdoor furniture.

And this line of outdoor furniture will far eclipse anything else I've ever seen in the market as far as price goes.

And if I don't sell any of them, I'm fine with that.

But I have a feeling that there's a certain customer base out there, Saudi princes?

I don't know.

But there's a certain customer base out there that's going to be like, I want that because it's the most expensive in the market because of that one reason, right?

Now I'm going to put everything I have into it.

And I have for years.

I've been working on this line quietly behind the scenes for years now.

Someday I'll release it.

But when I do, it's going to be priced in such a way that, you know, like I said, if I never sell any, I'll still be okay with it.

That's fine.

But it's going to be priced in such a way that there's going to be a certain client base that that's what they respond to, the perceived value based on price.

Well, I look forward to it, man.

I won't be able to buy it.

So...

Well, I want to hear your thoughts, Jon.

I just gave a 27-minute spiel.

Yeah, perceived value.

You know, I get it.

I get it.

I get it.

I get it.

I mean, for me, you know, maybe I look at things differently than some people.

And as I said, it starts from the very beginning.

Now, I have to admit, from my chemistry background, my scientific way of looking at things, you know, I guess I probably built my own little box.

That's why I made my little joke about the upcoming thing next month and my inspirational designs that I'm going to be coming up with were probably pretty fricking simple.

You know, that's how I look at it.

Perceived value to me always comes back to the same thing.

How does it feel, meaning the product, how does it feel, what does it look, how does it hold up, what's its durability, you know, yada, yada, yada.

And I do that based on the way I, and I know this isn't always right, it's the way I look at things, whether I walk onto a car lot, whether I, you know, walk into a store, you know, look at jewelry, you know, for Christmas, for my daughter or my wife, I mean, that's the way I was, how does it feel, what's its texture, what's it made out of, you know, is it, is it coated in gold or is it solid gold?

You know what I mean?

Is it whatever caliber of diamond, if I was looking at diamonds?

So I think for each of us as individuals, we look at that.

The struggle I think so many people is, and this is where, even for me, I mean, this is a struggle for me, and some of you guys have been much better at it.

So this is where I would love to hear more input, is we all probably understand perceived value, right?

I mean, even if, as I used my analogy, the $5 electrician versus the $500 electrician, like there's no secret to the $5 electrician, and he's like, yeah, man, I do it for $5 an hour, and it is what it is, and vice versa.

So we're always going to have that planes of quality, I understand.

I think the difficulty begins, or certainly one of my difficulty is, once you decide what your perceived value is, and what you want it to be, where do you go from there?

I mean, how do you tap into, I mean, what are some strategies for reaching the designers and the architects?

Because although I still deal mostly with homeowners, I'll still say to this day, one of my main reasons for dealing with homeowners is, number one, I deal with it regardless of classes, even if they saved every dime to finally get the job that I was able to provide for them, that was maybe a little bit outside their means, they're insanely happy with it.

But one of my reasons for still hitting those is, dude, I'm not going to lie, I don't know the steps.

And when I say I don't know them, I mean like effectively put into a plan, how to tap into and reach the designers and the architects, that I know a certain value-priced people are going to...

Because if you're using a designer to put your kitchen, your bathroom together, or whatever the case may be, you're already at a different financial level.

You know what I mean?

If you went to the architect to put your plans together, you're already at a different level.

So to me, that would be to help even myself, the struggles of the steps to get to that end, which hopefully, by the way, then also raises your perceived value, moves you into a new quality.

Yeah.

Well, that's a good point, Jon, because having a good product and then pricing it in such a way that's reflective of the quality of the product, so you're in the upper end of the spectrum for whatever that is, sinks, countertops, furniture, tile, bollards, whatever, pool coping, you're on the top tier.

But that's still not enough to then get it into the right customer's purview, so they know you exist.

And so you and I, this morning, we were kind of talking about what we want to talk about today before we did this podcast, and you brought that up, and you said, is that Instagram?

Is it Facebook?

Is it TikTok?

And my opinion is no, it's not those things.

Those things are great for makers.

You know, makers, I have nothing against them.

I follow tons of makers.

And these people, some of them have a million followers, and they make their money just from their followers, from viewers, right?

So they're making great income doing that, but they're not reaching the clientele they want to reach through Instagram, Facebook, TikTok.

I think the only way you're ever going to reach that type of client is through the gatekeepers, which are architects and designers, because that level of clientele, as you pointed out, they don't do things direct.

They hire people to do these things for them.

And so you need to find, each person listening to this podcast, wherever you're located, I'm in Wichita, Kansas now.

I was in Northwest Arkansas before that, I was in Phoenix.

But you need to find the movers and shakers in your area.

Who are the top tier architects?

Who are the top tier designers?

Number one, once you locate those people, reach out to them, see if you can set up a meeting and just come by and say hi, introduce yourself.

That'd be the first step.

You don't want to just do a cold call.

You don't want to just walk in, hey, my name's Brandon, I make concrete countertops.

I used to do that.

Not a good idea.

Nobody likes it.

Nobody likes that, right?

So set up a meeting.

See if they'll set up a time for you to swing by for 15, 20 minutes, just to introduce yourself and say hi.

So that's number one.

Number two is, I look for what events they're going to be at.

So a lot of times, architects and designers host events.

They'll have open houses, they'll do different things.

But look for those events and attend those events.

And again, it's a great way to introduce yourself.

Hi, you know, I'm Brandon.

I'm local, I make concrete sinks, countertops, furniture.

Oh, really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, I'd love for you guys to swing by my studio, give you a tour.

Great, yeah, we should set that up.

Awesome.

So you've made an organic introduction to this person you want to work with.

The next thing you can do is, and I'm not a huge advocate for this, but I know a lot of people are successful with them.

It's just not my thing, is lunch and learns.

Lunch and learns are things that architects and designers, usually architects, but designers as well, will essentially you come in and you bring lunch.

So you're bringing whatever, you know, you go and get stuff catered.

And while they eat, which is disgusting, and I hate hearing people eat.

You know, while you're trying to talk to them.

Yeah.

While they eat, you're giving a PowerPoint presentation or, you know, photos and you're, and there's like, oh, yeah, okay.

And you're like shoving breadsticks in their mouth.

They're only there because you're feeding them, you know, like literally like cattle, you're feeding them.

And in my opinion, that's the wrong way to do it.

Now, maybe, maybe you'll connect to somebody in that moment between them dipping the breadstick and sticking it in their mouth.

And they hear something you say and you're like, oh, I could use that in this upcoming project.

But for the most part, I think Lunch and Learns aren't the way.

That's just my own, that's my own opinion.

Organic is better.

The last thing is, you know, I told you sometimes I do, is I'll just be in a neighborhood of somebody that I like and I'll just swing by and get donuts in the morning or bagels or something and drop by and say, hey, I was just down the street, want to drop these off, say hi, hope you guys are doing well.

Great, right?

Low cost, 15 bucks, and you're just dropping in, you're doing something nice, you don't have any ulterior modus or objective, or you're not trying to do anything.

And they're like, oh man, that Brandon guy, man, he's such a cool guy.

We should see if there's a project we could work with him on.

But those little things, those little touch points are the best way to develop relationships with architects and designers.

Reaching out via email marketing, things like that, that's probably just going to go right into their mailbox and then get deleted.

You know, it's going to have to be in-person relationships.

Right, legwork, the legwork.

And as organic as possible.

That's the thing, as organic as possible.

So that's why I like going to events or maybe even having an event at your space, you know, like a studio tour, like, you know, wine, cheese, some live music, and have architects and designers down to just do a studio tour, things like that.

But something to where it's, yeah, in person, low stress.

Yeah, what are your thoughts?

No, I think those are all good things.

They're quite frankly, all things I've never done.

So I would love to say I'm an expert in this.

I'm not, I'm certainly not.

And especially over the last few years, just given my own little story, once my brother went back full time in the military, Afghanistan and then National Guard and so forth and so on, as most people know, I just went down to be in a one man crew, do a couple small projects.

I don't even do countertops anymore other than this cast in place job that my buddy Billy got a hold of me, so we did it together.

So I've kind of walked around, I deal with homeowners, man.

I deal with homeowners, homeowners that are insanely happy.

So there's always been this tentativeness with me to step out.

There was a time I made some phone calls, it was very, very short lived, some phone calls and this and that, and I just never followed through.

But that being said, in the coming 2025, my brother's back, things have changed.

I'm excited, even with the thing in January, I'm excited.

And so, I'm gonna get out, for me, I'm gonna use myself, I'm gonna get out of my own way and just go feel uncomfortable for a minute and do what you are talking about right here and see what happens, like legit.

I'm gonna do it.

Yeah.

Hey, did you ever send that microphone over to me?

Have you done that yet?

I have not, no, I apologize.

Let's do that, because Erin, apparently, my wife, has been compiling a list of things she wants to talk about on the podcast.

She read me off part of her list and it was quite extensive.

And all that has to do with sales and marketing.

That was something that she has a lot of experience with, with samples, with material rooms at Architects.

They have like a library, material library, architects always have.

And she thinks she want to talk about as far as that goes, things you should know about.

So I was like, yeah, that's all interesting.

And she has a different, yeah, she has a different experience than I do.

She's seen it from a different side than I've seen it from.

So it would be interesting to hear her, her viewpoints on these.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Well, what else, Jon, what else we got?

I'm looking at Facebook.

Hasn't really been a whole lot of discussion, but there's other groups you're in.

Is there any good discussions in any of the other groups?

Anything you want to talk about?

I'm going to say, yes, there actually is, but you know, per our conversation this morning, I don't know how positive they are.

So I'm trying to keep it positive for the, for the kids for Christmas, Jon.

Yeah.

Trying to keep it positive.

You know, coming into the end of the year, it's Christmasy, you know, the reindeer and the sleigh should be hitting the ground.

And in fact, see, I'll talk about other things.

As you watch that Netflix, I think it's called red one.

No, I haven't.

Did you?

Well, you haven't?

Oh, that's a lot of fun, man.

Yeah, I figured you would have watched out with the kids.

It was a lot of fun.

No, no.

So, yeah, let's watch Goodfellas with the kids and Casino.

No, you think I'm kidding.

The Godfather, my wife, she's like, oh, my God.

I'm like, anytime you flip on the TV, you can always find Goodfellas, Casino or The Godfather.

It's going to be playing on some channel.

And I'll always put it on that, you know.

And then it's some scene where somebody's getting stabbed in the neck or something.

And getting beaten by the back.

Yeah.

See, my favorite of those, just because the actors that we're talking about, was that Heat.

Oh, man.

They're coming out with Heat 2.

Oh, are they really?

Yeah.

Heat 2 is being filmed right now.

Yeah.

Oh, man.

See, what would be awesome?

Because Val Kilner, I mean, he killed it in that movie.

Oh, yeah.

I wonder if he's going to be in a position to come back as a, you know, as a cameo kind of thing.

Well, yeah, he's had some struggles, right?

Yeah, he has through cancer, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Something like that.

Yeah.

Right on, man.

Well, I don't know.

We can keep going, but I'm going to say on air.

Oh, hey, let me ask you this, Jon, because it's something I'm working on.

I want to cast some stuff.

I want to cast some stuff lighter weight.

This is for a totally different use, right?

I'm not going to go into the use.

It doesn't matter.

But I want to use pearlite in Maker Mix to lighten it, to just make it lighter, okay?

What is...

Now, you already gave me the amount that you recommended.

You recommended eight pounds of pearlite per bag of Maker Mix, and you wanted me to pre-soak the pearlite in water to help absorb all the...

You know, so it's not sucking out of the concrete.

So eight pounds per bag of Maker Mix.

But what is the...

How far can I push that?

What is the max?

Is eight pounds the max?

Almost like...

No, see, that's...

When you start talking about these kind of materials, like, you know, pore-aver or pore-over, however you say it, pearlite, they go by volume unless you get into the specific gravities.

So what you...

I wouldn't push it any more than probably two to one.

You might...

Of course, it depends what you're doing with it.

You could push it all the way to one-to-one by volume, you know?

But what I can't...

So what you essentially do is, yeah, where's your five-gallon bucket fill up with a bag of Maker Mix?

Well, we know that.

50 pounds.

And then what's that volume when you fill it up with pearlite?

But like I said, the key would be to pre-soak your pearlite.

It doesn't have to be drowned in water, but that's what you and I were talking.

The question is going to be how dry it is and what does it absorb.

So my recommendation was soak your pearlite.

Again, let's, for this conversation, let's say for equal volume, you fill up three-quarters of a five-gallon bucket, right?

And I don't know, let's say that weighs 10 pounds.

Okay, great.

Now, saturate that with some water, right?

Again, and I don't mean fill it up with water because it's probably going to float a little bit, but just saturate it with water.

And then you weigh it again.

And let's say after that, I don't know, let's say 10 percent weight, right?

Something like that.

So now it's 11 pounds.

But if you dump it out, you don't have water rolling out your bucket.

So, you know, the perlite sucked up all the water.

Then at that point, per my conversation with you, is figure that based on a 2 percent saturation.

And I would just simply take that 2 percent of the added pounds, subtract it from your given water, boom, mix it together, and you probably have a really, really cool consistency.

Yeah, I don't follow that.

See, in my mind, if the perlite soaked up, let's say, a pound of water, then I'd reduce the water I add by a pound, right?

No.

I know, because that's not correct.

But that's how my mind works.

And so when you're saying 2% of what?

Reduce it by, I don't know even what you're talking about.

Well, I would run to my point, my idea would first just based on the added pound.

Okay.

Because anything else that absorbed into the, let's call that the aggregate, anything absorbed into the aggregate is probably not going to impact your water-cement ratios, you know what I mean?

In fact, to a degree, it probably increased total strength, how that was released during the cure cycle.

So I would start by just taking X percent, and so I would say somewhere on no more than two, two to five percent of the added weight of the one pound.

Now, let's just assume you get like, and this is where trial batches, because there's no true science to this, you got to put more of a scientific method to it.

So make yourself a trial batch, and then base it on that first, and then you're like, holy crap, no, it was so wet, now the pearlite's floating, oh my god, okay, then great.

Then you go down and just figure like we do with aggregates, right?

Typically, one to two percent of the total weight, if you have a damp aggregate, and then you take it out of the total weight.

So in this case, two percent of your total of 11 pounds, that would probably be pushing your extreme.

Gotcha.

So when I started thinking about doing this, the two things that popped in my mind were vermiculite and pearlite.

And vermiculite, so I looked it up, because I'm like, what's the difference between vermiculite and pearlite?

And they're both sold in the garden section of Lowe's, Home Depot, things like that.

So vermiculite is composed of hydrated magnesium aluminum iron silicate, has a layered plate-like structure, expands when heated, form an accordion-like granules, and it retains water like a sponge, making it excellent for moisture retention.

That's vermiculite.

Pearlite is made from volcanic glass, amorphous volcanic rock, with a high water content.

It appears a small white, lightweight and porous granules after being superheated.

It does not retain water within itself but provides excellent aeration and drainage.

So it sounds like vermiculite is much more absorbent and pearlite less so than...

Correct.

Yeah.

So...

Yeah, things like your vermiculite is the one that's in a powder form.

It's used in a lot of your lightweight mixes, like your carvable mixes and stuff like that.

Okay.

So they use vermiculite over pearlite?

Yeah, for the same reason.

I mean, pearlite powder, you know, depending on how fine it is, it would be lightweight, but it wouldn't hang as well.

And it doesn't do as good of a job, and, you know, like you're saying, absorbing the moisture.

But anyway, this goes way back.

Let me ask you this, would I be better off, because I haven't done it yet, and I'm just trying to do something lightweight?

I don't care about the finish, per se, or anything like that.

Even strength isn't the biggest concern.

Would I be better off using vermiculite or pearlite for making lightweight if I'm just adding it to make or mix?

Now, since this is more like a one or two off, I would use a pearlite.

Vermiculite is going to take you a little more time to dial in, in my opinion.

Gotcha.

All right, buddy.

All right.

Well, I'm going to edit this.

I'm going to get home to the kids, watch Goodfellas or Casino, you know, on Christmas Eve.

There you go.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I'll look forward to you.

I'm sure I'll talk to you before, and I'm sure I'll talk to a bunch of other people before the end of the year.

My family's headed to Disneyland, so hope everybody has an amazing Christmas and a happy new year.

Awesome, buddy.

Well, Merry Christmas, Jon Schuler.

Thank you, sir.

Merry Christmas.