March 19, 2025

Rebuilding from Ruin: Caleb Lawson’s Concrete Comeback After Hurricane Helene

"Rebuilding is possible. I've done it twice, and it's not easy. But what we do is valuable, and it can be done."
– Caleb Lawson, Lawson Design

Sometimes, life takes everything you’ve built and washes it away. That’s exactly what happened to Caleb Lawson of Lawson Design in Canton, NC, when Hurricane Helene tore through his shop, leaving him with nothing but a choice—give up or rebuild. In this episode, we walk through the storm, the wreckage, and the lessons that followed. Caleb shares what it was like to start from scratch, the surprising advantages of a leaner setup, and the tools that proved to be truly irreplaceable. If you’ve ever faced a setback that made you question everything, this episode will remind you why resilience isn’t just about getting back up—it’s about coming back stronger.

🎧 Tune in and hear Caleb’s hard-earned wisdom on what he’d do differently if he had to rebuild all over again.

🔗 Listen now. Get inspired. Keep building.

The Concrete Podcast · Washed Away, Built Again: How Caleb Lawson Rebuilt from the Wreckage

#ResilientMindset #StoryOfRebuilding #OvercomingObstacles #CreativeEntrepreneur #LessonsInGrit #ConcreteCraft #GrowthMindset #SmallBusinessSuccess #HurricaneRecovery #TheConcretePodcast

TRANSCRIPT

0:15

Hello Jon Schuler.

Hello, Brandon Gore.

Well, we're going to have a special guest today.

Caleb Lawson is going to join us in a little bit.

Lawson Design.

Yeah, Yeah.

I'm actually excited about it.

You know, Caleb, a lot of people, if you're on Facebook, you probably know his shop got hit by Hurricane Helene.

0:36

He was in Asheville, NC, and it totally wiped out a shop.

Like it came through Asheville and like a tsunami.

Yeah.

Wipe the center wall out.

Oh man.

Yeah.

Devastated.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think he said.

Like it was like 12 feet of water in a shop or something if I remember.

But it totally wiped him out and he had to rebuild and he ended up moving to his house.

0:56

He has a, a big garage and ended up setting up his shop in his garage.

But I think this is going to be a great conversation about the lessons of going from a big space to a small space and what that experience has been like.

And, you know, I don't know, I'm just excited to pick his brain and, and share that information to people because I think a lot of people have gone through that.

1:15

I've gone, I actually went from a small space to a big space, but then I went from a big space to a small space again.

So I've I've kind of gone through it and it's, it's definitely something that is beneficial.

And what it's like to run lean, you know, what is it changes in profitability?

1:30

And then you and I have been focused on this for a while.

So I'm, I'm curious to hear his point of view knowing he's a family man.

I mean, he's home.

I mean, he's doing things now that sounds terrible in a way to be like, but he wasn't having to have these opportunities.

1:49

They, I know he just had a baby not long ago and you know, now he's working right there at his house at the same time trying to find that balance between, you know, what amount of space, how much work, profitability, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

2:04

So it'd be very interesting to hear his take.

I'll tell you what I I've done that.

So when I built my shop in Arkansas, I built my house, my shop, and it was walking distance.

It was like 200 feet away, right?

Yeah.

My wife hated it, bro.

My wife hated it.

I would just come be bopping over and she's like, what are you doing here?

2:21

I'm like, what do you mean?

This is where I live.

She's like, well, I just put the baby down for a nap and you're going to wake him up or whatever.

You know, I'm like, So what?

This is where I live.

You know, we'll go back to work and don't come back till five.

I'm like but This is why I built it here, so I can just walk home.

2:38

Yeah.

'Cause she's like, I miss, I miss when you were across town because you know, you wouldn't come home till 5.

So anyways, I think, I think it's a dynamic thing too, you know, but that being said, it is nice to be close to home and I for for me, you know, it's just really about not having a big expense.

2:56

I'm right now I kind of talked about in the last podcast, but I'm getting like hammered with property taxes in my shop.

It went up 290% this year from last year on on.

Yeah, it's insane, insane.

But that being said, I'm like looking at all the expenses and it's just, it's a big chunk of change every month just to have the shop space where in Arkansas I built a shop And you know, that's a outlay of expense, but the monthly cost wasn't near what I'm paying for this, you know, so that's The thing is when you're when you have a home space, just you don't have to work so hard just to stay open.

3:34

You know, it's a lot easier to stay in business.

And so that's the other thing that I think you.

Also learn pretty quick on not just the efficiency of the overall space like you know, what are you going to do for casting table or tables etcetera, etcetera.

But you know, I think one of the big expenses which I've never undertook at mine is, and I think I've talked about this.

3:57

So me in the winter, I pretty much shut my shop down, you know, maybe a specific project because I don't want, I'm not going to spend the money to keep that space heated.

I know that's going to cost probably 1000 or better a month just to keep it heated.

So I guess it's it's going to be great to talk to somebody to see how his life lessons so that moving forward, whether or not he stays in the space he's is now or build something himself.

4:27

I mean, these are what we all learn moving forward.

Like, Oh yeah, yeah, you know, I won't use these heaters again.

I'm going to try this or, you know, whatever the case may be.

So that your focus, which you didn't have at the time because the space was the space and you were leasing it.

4:44

So you're held to the confines of whatever the owner allowed you to do based on IT or tenant.

Yeah, TI excuse me, you know, it's going to it's it's a it's a very interesting conversation for anybody indeed, in my.

5:00

Absolute.

All right, so we know what we're going to be talking about here, but let's hit a few other things.

I had a guy message me on Instagram, Josh McIntyre, and he had a good question and somehow I missed it.

I answered him last night, but he asked it a while back.

5:17

But he wanted to know.

He listened to the discussion we had about the sensor push and he wanted to know, do you share this data with your clients to show them that it's gone through a full cure to ease their concerns about durability?

I was like, dude, I, you know, I've, I've been doing this for 21 years.

5:37

I've never once in 21 years anybody have concerns about durability.

The reasons we use the sensor push is for our own internal data.

So we know, we know that it went through a full cure.

We know what time it kicked after we cast and you start to get an understanding and you know, I, I said, you know, you can add more insulation and see how that affects it, how much longer the exotherm is held.

6:01

Or you can see what a thicker casting does, where you can see what colder temperatures in your shop, what result that had on the cure.

So this is really about your own data to understand what's going on, but it's not something I'd ever share with a client because it's a, it's none of their business.

But secondly, it's a client wants what you make with concrete.

6:19

They don't care about the sealer you use.

They don't care about the concrete you use.

They don't care about the PSI.

They don't care about any of that.

They should, but they don't, you know, they just say, hey, I saw this amazing triple ramp sink and I really want one from my house.

OK, we can do that.

6:35

And so that's that's the thing that that's just for the artisans information.

Yeah.

What I I mean, if you ask me that did there's been a long standing, I don't know, ignorance in this entire industry, whether we're talking about base, you know, instructors out there that stood behind their degrees or, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah.

6:58

And that ignorance has always been around, Oh well, how long do I keep it in the mold?

Oh, 24 hours, What does that mean?

Or 48 hours?

What does that mean?

Or remember, the old chain was seven days, right?

Seven.

OK, So what does that mean?

I mean, what is that telling us?

7:14

US nothing.

It told us nothing.

We had no idea.

And I always go back to this same thing because any of us could have this basic conversation.

So.

Oh yeah, you know, I do mold in 24 hours.

OK.

And this became the, you know, the parameters that we worked around as time, but that time never told us anything about the concrete.

7:38

And I'll just bring it up again, Show him back up at Dusty's the following morning after casting the afternoon before on his tables.

His shop was 70°, right?

We were out there in T-shirts and having a great time.

And then walk over and squish the concrete like what?

7:58

What is going on here?

This is unprecedented.

How did it not cure?

Did someone get delay in there?

And you know, all these, you know, fancy things in our heads of what could have transpired when the reality is the conquer just never kicked off.

8:14

Yeah.

Like that seems weird.

So it's a tool to tell you, well, tell all of us and pulls all the subjective crap out and I'll take it to another level.

It it also, if you use it for the kind of tool it is, it begins very quickly to differentiate between what materials people are using and you know, what they say they're supposed to do and what they're not doing.

8:45

And, and you have a tool at your disposal, very inexpensive tool to actually qualify all of these things that not long ago we just for what, you know, none of us had the access to truly understand what we're using or how we're using it, you know?

9:04

Exactly.

Absolutely.

Exactly, did you see the video on the concrete countertop sink and tile Facebook group?

Jonnnie Blout posted it and it's the most recent posting.

I've seen this video floating around for a little while now of some type of concrete mix.

9:22

It looks like it has like a a silicone added to it so it's super hydrophobic.

Have you did you see that video?

No.

Well, I think Long Gabe hit me on that some time ago, OK.

What's your thoughts on that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What do I think it is?

9:39

It's probably a gluconate of some sort.

Yeah.

But I'm saying, I mean there, what Jonnie was asking is, does this have any useful place in this industry, this type of product?

Not really, no.

I mean, this goes all the way back to whether we're talking about, you know, Zypexes or you know, so many other of these kind of things that may be crystalline based or sulfate based or gluconate based.

10:04

It doesn't matter.

Either.

The ones that now remember you and I were talking about it some time ago or someone asking me about like Rio Pel DS, which is their silane, siloxane kind of powder additives.

They definitely add a repellency, which makes us go, well, dude, that seems pretty awesome.

10:24

Yeah, but there's a difference between repellency and holdout and what happens for us, hell, in the years of ICT, I'll definitely is.

We in our little industry, we still consider when you set a wet object on these countertops and within a certain period of time, if there's a dark ring, dark circle, dark blotch and exterior project that got rained on, we see that as a problem.

10:51

Maybe clients don't, especially if you explain it properly, but we do.

And all of these ad mixtures, they'll create a beating effect and they'll leave some amount, but they don't leave hold out meaning.

So you still can't skip a sealer, you know what I mean?

11:07

I'll take it to the next level.

They can prevent, they can present challenges now with sealing technologies.

And I'm not saying to avoid them.

I mean, like again, I think the gluconates are pretty cool, but if you optimize some of these admixtures for repellency, it's going to lower your potential for certain ceiling technologies because it stops the way they either, you know, create a foot or bond to the concrete.

11:39

And then in the short term and long term you're going to have like your topicals will be peeling off it.

It does it, it creates as many problems I think is it does solutions in my opinion and everything because I mean, I've run the gamut.

11:55

There was a long step back and you know, back when there was called RheoPel D and then Master Builders took it off.

It was a BASF product to begin with.

But I'm like, oh, well, here we go, man, this is awesome.

Well, yeah, I created a an amazing beating effect.

12:11

In fact, if I remember right, the paver industry really adopted it well, but it didn't stop weathering, you know what I mean?

The pavers still end up wearing out and with rain and so forth and so on.

So it didn't really help.

12:26

I mean, the idea was, again, maybe we get around this whole ability from sealing and staining, but oil will go right through it, you know what I mean?

So yeah, I, I personally have not seen the advantage in our industry, but someday maybe.

12:45

Yeah, Yeah.

Well, I mean that that video is kind of like, remember when bendable concrete, that was everybody sharing a video of people pouring concrete in a rubber mold and then bending up the edge to make a table.

13:00

It's just like it's like a one trick pony, you know, it's just it's it's gimmicky.

It's click bait it it's same thing like translucent concrete where you strand 1000 fiber optic strands from one side to another and they're like, oh look, translate like dude that has no real world application.

13:17

Like no, no, no meaningful usefulness will come from this.

But people lose their minds on it and share the crap out of it for a minute at.

Least for a minute.

Yeah, Yeah.

Yeah, I thought at one point that I'd crack the code to translucent concrete and I was certain of it.

13:33

I had it all figured out and I had to do with side emitting fiber optics.

I thought oh man, I got this, I got this styled in.

Turned out I was wrong.

It won't work.

So anyways.

Remember Murray?

Murray had his his whole idea for translucent concrete, but it was a polyaspartic.

13:51

I don't remember that.

What was his on it?

No, I don't.

I don't think I've ever heard about this.

What was Murray's idea?

Oh, this goes back years ago.

I remember meeting up with Murray and he had this whole idea, guys, I got this.

It's just a whole translucent concrete.

This is going to be amazing.

And I'm like, I don't see how that's possible as long as we're using cement.

14:11

He's like no.

And pulls out this two-part.

Well, first of all, he shows this, you know, looks like a big clear glass brick.

And I'm like, really?

He's like concrete, Yeah, We can all pour resin and get get a yeah, yeah.

14:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anyway, I mean, I, I get it.

I, I, I certainly understand, you know, the, the idea.

But no, it's, it's just not going to work.

Not going to work.

Well, I'll tell you my idea because I thought it, I thought I'd crack the code.

So fiber optics people that are doing quote UN quote translucent concrete are just stranding fiber optics or acrylic rods.

14:53

There's Chinese companies that just do acrylic rods and then they'll Polish down both sides and light can go through.

But the fiber optics is the way.

What was it called?

Like Lutricon or something?

That's American company.

They're just doing fiber optics pouring in like a slurry mix, super thin mix, filling it up and polishing both sides.

15:09

And then the light, you know, you hold your hand up and you can kind of see the shape of the hand shadow on the other side.

And, and again, architects are like, Oh my God, translucent concrete.

And it's like, but you're making bricks, you know, like you're not pouring walls with this.

So I really got interested in fiber optics and they have side admitting fiber optics and side admitting fiber optics are where the whole fiber glows, which is really cool.

15:32

So it's not just, it's not just light coming out of the tip, but the entire fiber will, will glow.

And I'm like, Oh my God.

And I thought if I put in a very heavy loading of these side emitting fiber optics and it touches, it touches, it touches and goes all the way from this side to that side, that light would transfer through.

15:49

If you Polish down two sides, in theory it sounds like it worked.

But what what I didn't know when I first started down this path was side emitting fiber optics don't gain light through the side.

It still has to be injected into the the polished end, the tip.

That's where the light has to be pushed into.

16:06

So it can't, it can't gain light through the sides.

So it can emit light through the side, but it can't receive light through the side.

And so because of that, it won't, it won't transfer the light from fiber to fiber to fiber to fiber.

It has to still be, you have to have a, a, an injector or power unit that pushes the light into a polished cut end for it to work.

16:28

So I was just like, oh man.

Well, I think the same limitation is as as soon as you're slurry, your paste, whatever we're going to call it, coats the outside of the fiber.

I think the fiber in some ways, because this is something I tried and it same thing, but I did with glass and I thought, God, this seems so simple.

16:49

And so I took kind of like a terrazzo, right?

So I took a boatload of clear glass again with this idea that man right all you have.

To the light will work its way through.

Yeah, it'll work us right through.

I mean, it's it's right.

I'll clearly big and small.

17:06

I mean, until you realize like, well, yeah, but the way this, let's call it our paste works.

Is it once it coats every particle though?

They're not, not actually it.

Only takes It only takes a thousandth of an inch of the concrete paste to cover to stop the light from going through.

17:23

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

And boy, I really.

So now that we're driving, I thought I was really on to something, man.

And I tried every which weird Tutu.

I even tried like a pervious like, well, then I just got to make it pervious like, you know, like pervious concrete.

No, stupid.

17:40

It was holding the pervious together.

All the particles are coated.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

This is not going to work.

Yeah, I told the story long time ago about when I was, I think I was like probably about four, maybe 3-3 or four.

I got chocolate ice cream out of the fridge and I got a jar of peanut butter and I mixed them together and I was certain genius.

18:00

Dude, I'm like, I can't believe I came up with this.

I'm a genius.

I think I was probably about four because I don't think at 3:00 I could formulate that thought.

But at 4I I, I was pretty certain I was a genius.

And my dad was like, no, dummy, that already exists.

And he just.

18:16

Crushed your dreams, dude.

Yeah, he did.

He did that.

He did that his whole life.

Like anytime I thought I'd come up with something.

Used to run with this thing.

Yeah, he would just stomp on my my aspirations and whatever.

Yeah.

Next thing he's got a Ben and Jerry's name in his name with the what?

18:35

He came up with chocolate and peanut butter.

Thanks, Dad.

Something.

Thanks, Dad.

Yeah, yeah.

Sean, my old employee, right?

His dad passed away recently and I was talking to Sean and I didn't know his dad passed away and he told me he's like, oh man, my dad passed away, blah, blah, blah.

18:51

I'm like, man, I wish my dad would pass away.

I can't stand him.

I wish he would kick the bucket.

But anyways, yeah.

So before we hop on this call with Caleb, a few things to hit real quick.

19:07

I sent out an e-mail blast a few days ago.

You may have seen it or it was yesterday.

I sent it.

Never mind, I sent the e-mail blast yesterday.

But we have a RammCrete workshop coming up in 10 days.

Goddard, KS Perfect amount of time to book your flight, book your hotel and get out here.

19:24

So that's a 1 1/2 day.

RammCrete March 29th and 30th.

Goddard, KS Go to concrete design school for that.

Number two.

I made six sink molds, Pebble sink and it's like a a small sink, kind of a mid century modern design.

19:40

I made this tooling 15 years ago.

I used to have these molds made by company and the guy that used to make them passed away and, and I never found anybody to make them again.

So I ended up buying the equipment a few years ago and I'm just now kind of getting back to it.

So what I'm going to be doing going forward is I'm just going to do these small production runs of molds and I'll put them up for sale.

19:59

When they're sold, they're sold and I might come back and do another run six months, a year, 2 years down the road or not, I don't know.

But I have these up for sale right now.

I've sold a few of them so I only have a few left.

But if you're interested, $292.00 shipped in the Continental US.

20:15

And you can hit me up or go to Facebook and see photos of the mold and and if you want to buy one, let me know and I'll send you an invoice.

Next thing up.

Jon Maker Mix is now a CSF-HPC Crystalline silica free high performance concrete.

How'd you do that, Brandon?

20:32

I'm good man, I'm good, I'm good.

I've been working on this for a long time, Jon.

Don't crush my dreams so years.

So it's actually it's something that.

Inside joke.

It's, it's actually something that Jon has been working on for quite a while and we talked about this a little bit in the last time, but we have made the formal announcement.

20:50

We'll be updating the bags here soon with this information.

But essentially he's, he's been altering the aggregates in the mix to, to get the crystal silica out of the mix.

So it's a crystalline silica free mix.

And for us, you know, health is a big part of what we do.

21:07

Having healthy products is a big part of what we do from sealer to the, to the mix itself.

And this is just another step in that evolution.

So CSF-HPC, I'm 100% certain that the people that are making the switch now are people that have had have made the switch to make or mix are future proofing their business.

21:27

Silicosis and crystalline silica are going to be the the asbestos of our time.

And so getting out ahead of this now, you know, the builders back in the 70s that said, hey man, I think asbestos is going to be a problem.

We should probably move to something else, those guys for future proofing our business.

21:43

Same thing with the and.

Future proofing yourself, yeah.

And, and they're probably still alive where the guys are installing asbestos all day are all, you know, 6 feet under now.

So yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's just it's, it's to our advantage and always has been as I, I will stand on my soapbox any day.

21:58

And I don't mean that a negative to anybody.

But you know, at the end of the day, we all know what we work with.

We all know what we do and don't do and whether we're, you know, the respirator, maybe even purchase the respirator, but I just make to make a quick sample and next thing you know, you're opening a bag and dumping it in the mixer, you know, and you're grinding.

22:17

You're sweeping the floor and you're blowing stuff with compressed air and there's all this stuff in here, Yeah.

We all do it.

So to the best of our ability from raw materials through sealers, through everything we're using, you know, we all of us should continue to do our best to use materials that prolong our longevity and prolong our business.

22:38

And that are good for your customers, even though your customers may not know.

And it'd be a good thing to discuss with your customers and the specifiers, the architects and designers, when you meet with them, let them know this is the kind of mix that I use and this is the kind of sealer I use.

And we do that for a reason.

A, we believe it's the best products out there.

22:54

But secondly, it's the healthiest products out there, which is good for us, the maker, and it's good for you, the customer.

And I think getting that message in front of customers, especially the specifiers, will pay dividends for your business.

Because when a when a customer has a choice between using a toxic product or a healthy product, they'll choose healthy every time.

23:12

So you as an artisan, getting that information to the specifiers, let them know this is what sets me apart will only help your business.

So there's that next thing up, concrete hero's quest.

Joe is gallivanting around Japan right now, him and his family.

I've been seeing the photos on on Instagram.

23:29

It looks like an amazing time.

He'll be back.

I think the 26th is when they're getting back.

But we have a hero's quest out at Joe's shop, Joe Bates in Napa, CA.

We're going to have a hero's quest May 6th and 7th in Napa, CA.

And this is going to be an upright casting sync workshop, which we, the last time we did that, we've only done one was in Eureka Springs.

23:52

The very first workshop we held in Eureka Springs, Jon came out and did upright casting sync workshop.

So this is going to be upright casting sync and it's going to be RammCrete.

So we're going to do 2 different techniques in this class and that's going to be May 6th and 7th and you can register for that at concretedesignschool.com.

24:10

And then the Fundamentals workshop, June 7th and 8th.

Goddard, KS.

This is the basics class.

This is the class that you, you want to get started.

You don't know where to go to get the good fundamental, the basics information.

This is the class for you.

June 7th and 8th.

It's a 1 1/2 day class.

24:26

You can read more about and register it.

So there's that.

And then the last thing is the demo day, which I don't have the dates in front of me, but we do have a demo day for Kodiak Pro.

Had somebody else register for it yesterday.

So that's a free event.

And that's going to be a demonstration of Kodiak Pro products and sealer.

24:43

And you can go to kodiakpro.com to read more and register for that.

Anything you want to talk about Jon before we call Caleb?

I do actually, yeah.

So last thing, you know, we, we, Brandon and I, would like to get back to inviting people on, even with, I mean, obviously somewhat concrete related, but various subjects.

25:04

And so I really encourage anybody, you know, reach out to us if there's something you're interested in.

Hell, if you just want to get on for 20 minutes and berate us, you know, really like getting back to getting some guests on board.

There's so many.

25:20

There's such diversity in what where everybody's at, maybe what you're using, what you're doing and what your experience is and what your choices have been.

I'm thinking like Tim Reid, I'd like, I'd like to get Tim Reid on him sometime.

He was in Vegas, right?

I don't know if he's still in Vegas, but.

25:36

I think he anyway, I think he's like on sabbatical, like, you know, he's yeah.

Well, Tim Reid's a a good cautionary till and that he actually reached out to me and wants to come on a podcast to discuss his experience of becoming a really big company.

25:53

But then once you get really big, you have to feed the beast, you know, and I think that's an important lesson that everybody could benefit from.

So yeah, we'd love to get Tim on, but I think he's, I think he's out.

I don't know what he's doing, honestly.

I I see some posts every on him, but I think he's just traveling around and and enjoying life at the moment.

26:12

Yeah.

And then I think people even outside the box, like I talked to him, well, via Messenger, you know, is it I'm probably pronouncing his name wrong or Karif.

I think he's in Israel, yeah.

So again, it's just interesting to talk to people with very different experiences, customer bases, materials, you, you know, sometimes they're forced to work with and what you have access to and how you're making it work.

26:37

And so we really want to get people involved as much as possible.

So if you're at all interested or even think we wouldn't be interested, man, reach out to us.

Let's see if we can get, you know, more people on board.

And this, this entire small niche industry is a lot bigger than I think any of us truly realize.

26:59

So that's what I want to put out.

There.

Cool.

All right, well, let's give Caleb a call.

Let's do it.

Well, hello, Caleb Lawson, welcome back to the Concrete Podcast.

27:17

It's your second Hey Caleb appearance.

Gentlemen, appreciate you having me back on.

Yeah, man.

So this podcast, what I really want to talk about is your experience with moving from your last shop to your home shop now, but everything that transpired that led you down this path.

27:42

So right out of the gates, what happened?

So I don't know how you know how aware everybody in the community or or whatever your viewership listenership is of Hurricane Helene.

27:58

I think it was actually a tropical storm by the time it hit us, but did in this particular area.

So kind of the West North Carolina, Eastern Tennessee sort of region, but the level of of rainfall because we had been, we had been pretty saturated for several days prior to that.

28:22

I want to say we got 5 or 6 inches of rain the two or three days prior to Helene actually making contact with Western North Carolina.

And we received somewhere in the 24 to 30 inch range of rain in a matter of, you know, a day and 1/2.

28:40

Really.

See, I didn't realize that it was that much.

Yeah, the so there are a number of rivers in the area.

The French Broad is the big river that runs through Asheville.

The Pigeon River runs right by about a block away from my shop in Canton, NC.

28:58

The Nola Chucky River is, is kind of going into eastern Tennessee there and the Pigeon River came up 20, almost 27 feet, 26 feet.

29:15

The French Broad River came up over 30 feet.

And I'm not sure what the actual gauge height on the Nola Chucky was, but I do know that during the peak flow of the storm, the Nola Chucky Dam was doing more than twice the average or the High Peak daily flow of Niagara Falls.

29:33

So it was a lot of water and and of course, a lot of trees as well.

So a friend of mine actually had to cut down 64 trees to get out of his neighborhood after the storm.

So the amount of damage that was done in western North Carolina was, I mean, pictures, descriptions don't really do it justice.

29:56

I had a little over 12 feet of water in my shop, like river water.

We, when we got around to finally cleaning tools and stuff, I actually it was like might have a Bosch router did that was, it was almost like, you know, mold of silt, like the, the I probably got 3 lbs of silt out of the inside of my festival tracks all.

30:25

So in terms of, you know, the level of infiltration and damage and you know, it, it was pretty extensive.

And, and so that's kind of what led me because my building was inhabitable, uninhabitable after, you know, after that.

30:46

In fact, I was down there a couple days ago.

The windows are still broken.

Like there's, you know, still a bunch of mud, 6 foot pile of mud sitting in the parking lot.

And so we were just, we were unable to continue there and you know, thankfully we have a large garage that is that we're making do in.

31:06

So cool man.

So what what was that experience like from you had?

How big was your your old shop?

It's about 3200 square feet.

We had about 1000 square feet of what I called showroom that we had started kind of using as part shop too.

31:23

But that's where that big 16 foot conference table is.

And and so we had effectively about 2020 200 square feet of shop, shop and then a very, very large parking lot.

So tons of storage, you know, plenty of room for a tractor trailer to turn around for deliveries, that kind of thing.

31:43

And so we went from, you know, that to my garage is right out of 1000 square feet.

So definitely a lot smaller, you know, so about. 50% though amenities, yeah, yeah.

Not including the showroom, of course.

31:59

Yeah.

Exactly, exactly.

So obviously no showroom, which to be fair, I, I know a lot of people are kind of hot or cold on showrooms.

I have been both.

I'm not really sure you need them, but I don't know.

32:14

I mean it, it kind of depends on your foot traffic and what kind of foot traffic you have, right?

You know, in my little town of Canton, it was kind of one of those things where I moved to Canton because I wanted to live in Canton, not because I thought there would be a lot of work coming from Canton.

So the showroom was less than useful for me.

32:31

It was useful when I taught classes and things like that, certainly because you know, having a big conference table is great for when you have a bunch of people you know at your shop.

Yeah, sitting around it.

Yeah, yeah.

So what was the the experience like when you downsized and you had to rethink your workflow?

What was that like?

32:48

You know, that's an ongoing question.

I think initially really it's all about efficiency.

So we've kind of we've kind of honed in on, you know, on efficiency.

I still have my two of these, grateful to have been able to keep them.

33:05

And we've kind of discovered that there's a nice workflow of, you know, when one of my guys who's, you know, he's a fabricator by nature, right?

So he's going to come and do his hours and he's going to do him well.

33:20

And so he's, he's my fabricator.

So he's doing the kind of standard projects, you know, the the more custom stuff.

And then one of my other guys can do repeatable stuff.

So if we've got like a bunch of, you know, identical tiles to make or got molds or whatever, he can kind of process that out and then I'll do something that's like really bespoke, right?

33:42

And so we've discovered that we can kind of do three projects at once if we all keep to ourselves.

And so we've been able to really ramp up efficiency, which has been helpful.

You know, it's definitely a process because we've there's not much I can Polish in the winter because I can't Polish inside because I don't have drainage.

34:04

So I've got to, I've got to Polish it outside, which is a bit of a pain when it's 20° outside and so.

Toughen up Caleb, Geez Louise, you can survive a hurricane, but man, not the cold.

34:19

Dude, Polish is in the cold part.

Boy, Jon, I am an eighth generation Floridian.

My blood is thin.

Anytime you water Polish it puts that mist in the air and when it's cold, dude, it is gnarly.

Yeah.

34:37

Man, there was a moment a few weeks ago I was polishing something and literal like the mist was not mist, it was ice.

Like ice was just flying off the polisher.

Oh man, I'm like, well, I probably.

Shouldn't be doing this right now, but.

Well, something that I was thinking about the other day about your experience, and I've kind of gone through this myself when I've downsized, is figuring out what tools truly matter.

34:59

So you went from a big shop, you had all the tools, the hurricane came through, wiped everything out, and then you had to kind of sift through and decide what you're going to rebuild with.

So with this experience you've gone through, what tools have you come to find that are 100% necessary?

35:16

And what tools are kind of, you know, nice to have, but you don't have to have?

Well, you know, it's interesting.

I kind of did this when I moved to North Carolina as well.

And so I've I've done this sort of thing a number of times and it's it's only really distilled that for me.

35:32

So the track saw I think is huge.

I think that is a compact and really precise tool that is to me it's indispensable.

And props to festival on a couple of things because I don't know if you know this, but we were flooded in 2021 as well in kind of a micro storm.

35:54

And I sent, I sent my Festools CT36 vacuum off to them.

I was like, look, it's been flooded.

I know this is not a warranty claim, but you know, let me know if you can do.

And they sent it back to me free of charge, completely rebuilt.

So I'm going to be a Festool loyalist on that because not only are their tools fantastic, but their customer services as well.

36:16

And my TS-55 tracksaw has survived both flights.

Awesome.

Yeah.

So I've, I've been really pleased with that tool.

You know, I, I feel like one of my guys really likes having a table saw, which I appreciate.

36:34

But you know, if you're living in a really compact environment, I think you can do 90% of what you can do on a table saw.

A little bit more accurate, maybe a little slower, but with a track saw.

And to me that, that and a, a good chop saw, you know, you can get by, you can get through a lot with, with those tools, you know.

36:53

Yeah, just a couple of and I know you were jumping around, you know, tools and, you know, figuring out which to get the whole thing more efficient based on.

See, I remember a conversation you and I had, I don't know, was probably right after Helene or not long after man when I was reaching out to you.

37:11

Just, you know, hey, how are you doing kind of thing?

And I guess we're, how about the emotional side, man, because in our conversation now you can, you can change this in my opinion, because I'm just going to give in my opinion, you were going through a bummed moment, not just the idea of Helene, but I think a lot of us who have done this for a while now, I started in, in a single car garage.

37:35

We've talked about that many times.

And then, you know, the, the vision is always like, how do I grow?

You know, how do I grow and do I need employees and, and yeah, and my table saw and, you know, da, da, da, like all that.

I need this space and I need all these tables and I need da da, da, da, da, da.

37:54

And, you know, in a way that feeds our ego.

I think we can all agree to that.

It, it, it feeds an ego.

And that's where the perception for us becomes where you know what, what is our definition of success?

And then I remember talking to you during that period of time and, and I don't get me wrong, I know you had other things going on too.

38:13

And, you know, one of the things that seemed like you were bummed about was like, you know, hey man, you know, where where am I going with this thing?

And does does this make me successful anymore?

Meaning in your own mind, not, you know, not.

38:29

And that's the hardest thing, right?

I think that's the hardest thing for all of us.

We talk about everything from materials, sealers, whatever, And I think a huge, if not the biggest hindrance to all of us is ourselves and our perception and who we are.

And so you've clearly had a minute to put this stuff together and I'm sure you're going to continue to grow, but how is that working for you?

38:56

Meaning again, the emotional side, how you feeling about this?

Yeah, I I would think you'd be pretty positive at this point, no.

Yeah, it's, it's interesting for sure.

I mean, every time I because I occasionally have to go back down to the old shop for something, right?

We're not leasing it anymore, but it hasn't really been cleaned up.

39:11

And I do have some like weird kind of, I don't know, auxiliary things that are still down there.

And so I'll go grab something here or there.

And it's a very strange experience, right?

Because that was, that was a, you know, I, I was four years into a five year lease, you know, ride in downtown.

39:30

That was definitely an ego thing.

You know, having a a shop on Main Street was fun.

Oh, all the windows out front, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean it was a great shop.

You know, I think I think it served us well and I think overwhelmingly, you know, there is positive, right, because we had the way the community came together, the, you know, again, super grateful to have the space.

39:56

I really love working at home.

I love, you know, my kids come downstairs at, at, you know, 315 when they get home from school and you know, they're tinkering with me and I, I just that I don't think I could give up, right.

I, I, you know, I will now be a work at home guy because I just to and I think Brandon has figured this out on some level of you know, it seems to me and I.

40:20

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you have kind of opted for ultra bespoke smaller projects because that's what gives you the most freedom to say, you know what?

Today I'm going to hang out with my kids.

And I think, you know, I saw a, a meme or, or something on Instagram the other day that it was like, there's 3 levels of success.

40:42

Number one is know your own yard #2 is pay somebody else to know your own yard.

And the top tier is know your know your own yard.

And, and I really think that's I, it's totally accurate, right?

Like I, I want to be able to have the freedom of time.

40:58

We're actually going to homeschool my kids next year.

And I look forward to the opportunity because I was homeschooled from 4th to 9th grade.

And you know, when I started learning about American history and when I got excited about it was when my mom took us to Williamsburg as a, quote, field trip.

41:14

And I think that to me is just really exciting to be able to, you know, hopefully choose my destiny, if you will, and, you know, choose to have family time rather than, you know, being at the shop 24/7.

41:31

And so, you know, there's definitely a lot of upside and a lot of positive, you know, but balanced by the tremendous.

I mean, you know, you drive into going to Target, right?

You have to go through an area of Asheville called the River Arts District.

41:49

It's called the River Arts District because it's on the river and it's, it's not there anymore.

You know, it's there are piles of mud and cars that have just been, you know, overturned and buildings that are gone.

And it's, it's wild.

42:05

You know, there are a couple of of areas in the River Arts that have opened back up and that's really exciting.

But it's also like you're kind of in this weird juxtaposition because you're in a like third world country next to a nice restaurant.

It's strange.

And so, you know, I was talking to a client, this one actually who she's, you know, they, her house got hit with like 3 trees during a lean and they're just now starting to fix the house.

42:33

And, you know, we were talking this morning and she was like, it's going to be, you know, 10 years that we're talking about this kind of fixing of Asheville.

And so it's it's a, there's a lot of upside.

There's a lot of positive, but there's also a lot of like, we're still here, you know?

42:51

Yeah, Yeah, I like Jon's question, but I'm still thinking about the tool part of it because we started down that road.

So of the tools that you have come to realize that you have to have you hit the tracks all what else would be on that list?

43:07

Let's let's, let's do like the top five that you've come to realize.

Like I, I cannot operate without these five tools.

What would those be?

Think you got to have a track saw desk collection in the small shop is phenomenally important.

So I think you have to have a track saw.

And you have to have the track saw vacuum combo.

43:26

I think you have to have a good Sander.

I mean, it's it's like your it's almost your basic woodworking tools, right?

And then carts, I do not have any stationary casting tables anymore.

And so we are casting on, you know, various carts.

43:42

So you have to have good flat level carts.

Mobility, yeah.

And yeah, and I think, you know, to be able to move around anything in your shop is really, especially in a small shop is is really important and and you can get by with a lot of minimum stuff, right.

43:59

But you've got to had the polisher.

I know, I know, y'all are kind of most of the time you, you guys don't wet Polish it.

If I'm not mistaken.

I still do some.

I'll admit as an artisan of 12 years, I still am only decent at acid washing and we're we're doing it a lot more.

44:17

We're getting better, but I sometimes find that I still prefer to Polish.

And so I'm a big fan of my alpha.

I think it's an 855 whatever, the one with the yellow, I don't know, two different colors of of whatever, but it's the, it's the alpha air, I guess the A55-O.

44:42

It's a pneumatic.

Fan of that.

Yeah, I'm a huge fan of pneumatic tools.

My compressor has also survived both floods.

I've got an Emacs 10 horse, 80 gallon, the one with the silencer or whatever, and it is a phenomenal air compressor.

44:58

Cool.

And I'm a huge fan of SO air compressor.

That's the one tool I've just never brought in, and I keep telling myself, yeah.

You're not a compressor guy.

Huh.

No, I've now everything's been electric, man.

45:14

Everything from start to finish.

Yeah.

And and don't get me wrong, when I see people using them and like, oh, that makes a lot of sense.

And do you love?

When you get shocked polishing something because that's my favorite.

No.

So again, the difference is, you know, when that happens.

45:30

No, I mean my same thing.

I'm using an alpha.

I just move it outside under this oak tree into this, you know, kind of, you know, dirt area.

And no, man, I've never had an issue with it.

Never.

Yeah, I used to get shot.

I had some.

Stuff DS yeah, DS3O ones, like the old ones, yeah, the cords would get kind of funky and my gosh, you, you run it just wrong.

45:55

Or like you go to swipe the water off so you can see the sand grains or whatever and just get like the little jolt that just lets you know it's there.

Dude, I used I I had a GFCI wired into the plug.

Then we had the the GFC.

I I had a flex, I want to say handheld electric polisher when I first started had a GFCI on the cord.

46:15

So there's 2GFCI S I'd wear rubber gloves, rubber boots.

And still I was getting shocked.

Yeah, it was crazy.

So air compressor, track saw, mobile carts, water polisher, vacuum.

46:31

OK, so it's your top five.

Those are good tools for sure.

It What was something that you thought when you move from the big space to the small space?

What was something you thought that you really needed, but then you realized I don't need it.

You know, I'm going to kind of piggyback on the cart thing and say casting table because I've always been AI mean.

46:50

You know, at my first shop ever, I had a couple of four by eights, which are honestly stupid sizes if you ask me, because it if you have like 4 by 8 something, then you can't put edging on it or whatever.

But and then I also had like a 5 by 16 casting table.

47:08

And then at my second shop, I had that same 5 by 16 and then I had a 6 by 20 that I built and I put epoxy on both of those.

And I mean, I felt like they were indispensable.

And then at the, the shop here in, in Canton, I had AI think it was a 5 by 16 that I had steel on.

47:31

I'd Corian on it for a while, which I can, you know, sort of recommend and or not recommend depending on you know, it's very heat sensitive.

So if you cast something big and thick, it will crack and then but it's easy to be mold.

47:47

So you know, there's that.

But then I put steel on it and the table did not survive the flood.

Steel got bent, the table kind of collapsed.

And so I really thought, I really thought casting table, but having again, with a small shop, having everything be mobile is so key that I that I would say, you know, carts can easily take the place of that.

48:11

Yeah, no, I agree 100%.

I I've never had a big casting table.

I've been to people's shops like Dusty that have huge fixed casting tables and I.

He's got several big ones.

Yeah, I I think it's a great thing if you have the space, but I've never had the space.

And so I've always, my first shop in Tempe was like a submarine.

48:29

It was long and narrow and it was just just a Tetris puzzle every day of like moving things around so you could do whatever.

And I think that really shaped my perspective on it.

But I've always had 4 by 8 tables because that's the size of melamine.

48:45

And I'm, I'm, I use melamine, but I've always had 4/4 by 8 tables with a torsion box on top.

And what I love about that is I can take the torsion box off and put it on the floor.

So if I'm casting something that's really tall and you know, if it's up in the air and I'm trying to port, it's a lot more difficult to getting it down.

49:02

And then when I need to flip it, it's already the center of gravity is at the, you know, at the ground level.

So I can flip it a lot safer than up in the air, definitely.

So I'm kind of a modular approach.

But yeah, I agree 100% that it's a nice to have, but it's not much.

My shop here is 2400 square feet and of that, probably 2000 square feet is the actual shop space. 400 is the the little showroom when you walk up front.

49:29

But it's, yeah, I have a live feed now of my shop, a webcam feed.

And you can see it, it's kind of a weird shape.

And so it's kind of the same thing that you're running into is I have tables I'm constantly moving to, to do whatever to like, you know, pull a pallet of maker mix out.

49:45

I have to like push the tables over here and then I need to, you know, do this and get melamine down.

I got to push tables over there and so it's just constantly shifting everything around to to work.

But yeah, I mean, it just is what it is.

How you make it work, And I think that's one thing that all of us kind of have in common is that we are we, we make things work, right.

50:06

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, you got to be resilient because I I mean, I can only imagine that regardless of the downsize your shop, you know, you know where you're where you're moving to and how you're making it work.

I mean, how is that altered your, let's say perspective or your approach to business growth?

50:25

Are you, are you still focused on any version of growth or just satisfying customers that you already had?

You know, I think for the first few months it was like, let's, let's do our best to get through the projects that we had pre flood.

And we've done that now and have actually been able to turn out some, you know, AI think some, some really cool work.

50:47

But B, I feel like we've, we've figured out some good productivity.

And so, you know, I think for me right now, I'm looking more at, I'm looking more at growth from a profit margin standpoint more than a quantity standpoint, if that makes sense.

51:05

Sure.

You know, No, exactly I.

I want to see because I think a lot of us get into this because we're good at building things and maybe not so good at the business part of things.

At least that was my experience.

And so I'm focusing a lot right now on building my team so that I can focus on business aspect of things.

51:27

You know, I at at my heart, you know, I love building things with my own hands.

I love all of that.

But I also recognize that that's a bottleneck for a lot of business owners.

And so, you know, there's different philosophies on that.

A good friend of mine, Joanne Smith in Maine.

51:43

It's like I'm going to do it all myself and it's going to be me and no employees.

And I respect that.

I I don't think I could do that.

That's the boat I.

Made I'm too much of A and that's awesome.

Like I kind of wish I could do that, but I'm also like too much of A people person.

I don't really like to work alone.

52:00

And so that informs a lot of how I choose to operate my company, you know, so, but then also the aspect of I really do love working at home.

And I really do, you know, if I want to take off at noon on a Tuesday, like, OK, that's what I want to do.

52:18

And, and so kind of setting, setting up the business model for that, which has not been how I've traditionally operated.

It was kind of when I moved home that I was like, Oh no, I really love.

This.

Yeah, that was nice.

Well then see I sorry I interrupt you.

52:34

That to me is one of the major Silver Linings then.

I mean, if you huge not say this is solely where you were, but I definitely understand because I've been there.

You get on this hamster wheel.

I've been on that hamster wheel.

And you know, again, I I keep using the word success, but was undeniable in my head, especially when I moved from where I started and kept growing.

52:56

And then now in my shop now is about 2800 square feet and we were pumping out, you know, kitchens and it was just like, Oh yeah, I did.

I am in my head.

I'm big cheese, you know what I mean?

I had a nice pickup truck and you know, I'm my brother and and Billy and boom, I'm off looking at another job and I'm like, dude, we are.

53:17

I mean, I'm just killing it, you know, killing it.

And I really felt pretty awesome, especially people knew you in the, you know, in the community and know Jon Schuler and creativecrete.

Oh, if you want something done, you're like that.

Damn right, dude.

I made it, but I wasn't making the money, you know, if that makes sense.

53:35

You know what I mean as.

Well, you know, you can do at a certain level, you can do X number in revenue and yet you as the company owner don't actually make any more money.

And so it's really about dialing in your profit margin and keeping the profit margin rather than being like, oh, I got to get all the, you know, it's like I could do half a million, I could do a million, I could do this, I could do that.

53:58

But.

How do I do a million and walk out of here with it that I made 85,000?

Well, dude, my experience, my experience with employees was they made more than I did when I had employees.

Yeah, and I was paying them at the end of the year when I did my taxes.

54:16

I'm like son of a bitch.

I'm in here working 60-70 hours a week, dying from stress, having ulcers, staying up all night, and these guys are clearing more than me and they go home with no stress.

They don't have to worry about anything, you know, but all the money I was making, I was going out there selling these jobs, grinding, doing all this stuff.

54:34

And ultimately all the money was just being funneled to them.

And I felt an immense amount of responsibility because they had families and I'm like, you know, these guys depend on me and I have to deliver.

And it was only through circumstances of the the market crash in O 8 and other things where I downsized, downsized, downsized and finally got to where I'm at right now, which is no employees, that that burden was lifted.

54:56

And the money kind of what you're saying efficiencies, which was a question I had, which Jon's question was a good lead up to this is now that you've gone from a shop where you had probably, you know, fairly sizable lease payment and all the expenses, and now you've moved to a home shop is running leaner in in probably a little bit more efficient in some ways.

55:17

Is that increasing profitability for you?

Oh, absolutely.

I mean, it's, it's funny because I, I looked at like my electric bill at my house has not gone up as much as my electric bill at my shop was heating.

Because it's in a basement, it stays pretty consistent in temperature year round.

55:35

And so I've got a little space heater that keeps it plenty warm, has all winter.

And, and so in terms of, I mean, I had natural gas heat at the, at the other shop.

It was like those, you know, big linear, like chicken warmers or whatever coupe warmers there.

55:54

I had two of them.

There were 100,000 BTU apiece and to keep the shop 60 in the winter, it was right out of $1000 a month.

So that's on top of, you know, my lease payment and the electric bill and the, you know, I had to pay for the Internet there and, you know, all these things.

56:10

So yeah, I'm saving thousands of dollars every month just by virtue of being in my own house.

And you know, we have, I mean, we're, we haven't done as many projects.

I'm not as busy as I normally would, would, you know, consider to be successful.

56:30

But we are still living the same lifestyle.

And it is.

Not.

And you're actually finding a better balance.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're not.

And I mean.

Go ahead.

Well, I'd say you're not working to feed the machine now.

Before you had to grind all this out just to pay that bill before you even made a dollar.

56:49

And now you can do less and make the same or make more by doing less.

Yeah, exactly.

And and you know, I've encouraged others in this industry and as I know, you have to raise prices and I have done that as well because I think that was an important step to say, you know what, I'm going to produce less.

57:09

And so but I want to make the same amount.

So I got to make my prices higher.

And what I have found is a couple of things first, and Brandon, you found this that shipping is not a big deal.

And so I have chosen to pursue markets that I know can support the amount of money.

57:28

I want to chuckle my work.

And so, you know, I'm doing work in Miami, I'm doing work in LA, I'm doing work in New York because those markets support the type of money I want to make.

And then, you know, if I don't get a job locally because I'm too expensive, well, that's OK by me.

57:47

But you know, because I'm pursuing these other, these other markets.

Did you listen to the podcast from last week when we had case on?

I have not yet, but I will.

I'm sorry.

Well.

Case just this one time.

Case his experience, he's a firefighter and that's where he he makes his income.

58:06

So the concrete thing's kind of a side gig.

He does.

And he's like at 100 bucks a square foot, you know, and I told him, like, bro, that was my price 20 some years ago, you know #1 but but I told him, you know, if you just said to a customer 150 a square foot, I bet they'd still say yes.

58:27

Because you're never going to say to a customer when they come to you and they say, hey, what's just going to run like square footage price?

Well, and we talked about like maybe not throwing out square footage price, but you know, but if they ask that question.

I don't love I I mean, I have it internally, but I don't usually disclose square footage price exactly.

58:43

Like if I'm doing a a quote for a job, I'm I'm quoting you for the job.

Yeah, like the price is the price.

Yeah.

And you know, if you want to do the math and figure out that I charged you $200 a square foot, like that's fine, I guess, but it is what it is.

58:59

Yeah, but if he just said to them like they came to him and, or let's let's say that it's 100 square feet.

So you know, he's like it's going to be what's 100 * 110,000?

Yeah, OK, so 10,000, man, I'm horrible at math.

59:15

So 10,000 bucks, right.

But if they came to him and said, hey man, here's my kitchen.

He knows 100 square feet.

He's like 15,000.

They'd probably say, OK, you know, it's just one of these things that it's like if you give them the number, they'll probably say, OK, but if you give them a lower number, they're never going to say to you, man, 10,000 seems cheap.

59:33

I think 15,000 is more fair for this amount of work.

Like they're not going to throw that number out there to you.

But if you just say to them, you know, yeah, looking at this and blah, blah, blah, the time involved is going to be 15,000.

They'd be like, yeah, sounds good, let's move forward.

So it's just.

Well, what's that adage about the the boat mechanic?

59:48

You know, they, they'd gone through all these different people who couldn't fix the boat, blah, blah.

Blah with the hammer, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, Comes in and taps the the motor and it starts right up.

And he sent a bill for 10 grand and they're like, what, you just tapped it?

And so the itemized invoice was a dollar for using the hammer and $9999 for knowing where to hit exactly.

1:00:11

You know, I, I, I think, I think that one of the biggest problems that I've noticed in our niche industry is that we don't generally.

See our own value and so we don't charge enough.

It's a lot of work.

1:00:27

It's a lot of work.

And as time goes on, I have been guilty of square footage pricing, not that I itemize it on a bill, but I have thrown it out to customers, You know, 150 square foot.

You can kind of do the math, know where I'm going to be, whatever, I'm going to move away from that.

But we talked about on the last podcast, I met with the local web design company about making some changes to the website and the guy sent me a proposal.

1:00:51

And in the proposal he itemized 5 hours at 150 an hour for invoicing and onboarding for US.

Essentially, he wanted to charge US $750 to send us an invoice.

He wanted to invoice us for sending us an invoice, $750.

1:01:10

And I thought, this guy is insane and he was insane.

The guy is like legitimately nuts.

But that being said, had he just gave me a lump sum and never disclosed that $750 charge and just said it's 10,000 bucks for all the stuff you want done, right, Jon and I probably would have said, yeah, sounds good, let's do it.

1:01:28

Yeah, because we wouldn't have seen that, you know, that crazy charge in there.

But he itemized it.

And so same thing with square footage is we're kind of talking a case is like case instead of telling them you're 100 square foot or 150 square foot, just give them a flat rate.

And then there's no nickel and diamond.

1:01:44

It's no like, well, I measured it and it's 3 square feet smaller than you said it was or whatever, you know, like there's none of that.

It's just here's the flat rate.

Well, and there's also this whole thing of like, you know, I'm going to charge for the amount of room it actually takes on my casting table, right?

1:02:00

So if there's a sync knockout which I charge for, I'm still charging for the square because it takes that amount of square footage on my table.

Yeah.

And it's it's time to build the sync knockout.

You know it, it's doesn't make itself.

You got to make it so.

Yeah, exactly.

And so, you know, I just, I don't think we value ourselves highly enough and, and not to say we need to get all, you know, haughty or whatever, but you know, when you're doing the amount of work that we do to make realistically something that is going to be in the case of kitchen countertops, the most abused, most looked at, most critiqued surface or item in the entire home.

1:02:36

There's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of time, energy and effort and pressure that goes into that.

And I think it's really important that you charge for it.

Yeah, I agree.

So you've gone through this whole process.

You went from a big shop, a natural disaster hit, totally wiped it out is unexpected.

1:02:53

What would you, what would be your advice to another artisan in this industry if they go through the same experience you've gone through, like what?

What would you say to them?

I mean, rebuilding is possible.

I've done it twice and it's not easy.

But you know, what we do is valuable and it can be done.

1:03:12

So I I would encourage them to persevere, honestly.

The whole journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step.

So it was just first step is, you know, go through and find what's what's salvageable.

Next step is where are we going to go?

You know, let's start doing that.

And yeah, working through it.

1:03:28

Well, and I think one thing that we, as you know, entrepreneurs as artisans, we, we're problem solvers, right?

So the ability to problem solve, the ability to pivot are the two things that make us able as contractors, if you will.

1:03:44

That's what make, I mean, it's a skill set that, you know, generally speaking, our clients don't have and that's why they hire us.

And so, you know, to look at a problem like that, which it is, and say, OK, can't use this shop, here's a lot of tools that aren't going to work.

1:04:01

How can I make this work and be able to pivot, I think is maybe the most important skill and and encouraging.

Look, you actually do have the skill.

It's what you're being paid for.

You just may not know it.

Yeah.

Yeah, agreed.

Agree.

1:04:16

Awesome.

All right, guys.

Well, I got to wrap this up.

I got to get to work.

Well, Caleb, glad you're doing well, man.

And like a lot of times, it takes us to being kicked down before we realize what we really have.

So kudos to you.

Smaller space, closer to family, growing in a whole new way.

1:04:32

So that's awesome man.

Sounds great.

Yeah man, appreciate it.

Appreciate y'all having me on and I look forward to next time.

Awesome, buddy.

All right, Caleb.

Adios, amigo.

Adios, adios.